Do you still buy factory ammo?

[Don McDowell]

I know this isnt what my thread was about, but I'm glad you mentioned it. I keep seeing this over and over and over. What's the logic behind this statement? How would anyone even know its a handload once its already spent? I know people, including some cop friends, that couldnt walk into my loading room and tell me the difference in my stuff and the factory stuff laying around. How and the world would they figure it out once the bullet and powder are gone and the primer is burnt on the inside?

There are a ton of reasons not to use handholds as self defense, just like it's not exactly a good idea to be going on about it on an internet forum.. If you know cops, then you probably know a lawyer, ask the lawyer about all the nifty things that can happen in a lawsuit, over seemingly innocent normal activities.

 

[GBExpat]

I know this isnt what my thread was about, but I'm glad you mentioned it. I keep seeing this over and over and over. What's the logic behind this statement? ...

It is speculative myth ... but it has been repeated often enough to acquire a certain amount of specious credibility ...

... somewhat akin to the ludicrous idea, often quoted as proven fact, that .303Brit MkVII bullet groups "tighten up downrange". Silly.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I know this isnt what my thread was about, but I'm glad you mentioned it. I keep seeing this over and over and over. What's the logic behind this statement? How would anyone even know its a handload once its already spent? I know people, including some cop friends, that couldnt walk into my loading room and tell me the difference in my stuff and the factory stuff laying around. How and the world would they figure it out once the bullet and powder are gone and the primer is burnt on the inside?

This theory is presented by Massad Ayoob. Retired PO, does extensive handgun training, has also been called as a witness in trials as an expert on firearm ballistics and self defense.

As to knowing if you used reloads, there are two major items used. First, anyone educated in firearm forensics should be able to tell if the case has been reloaded. Second, the authorities will inventory your house, confiscate your records, which can be used in a civil suit, which does not have the strict burden of proof requirements used in criminal court.

Mas has some excellent points in his arguments. I put him in the category of people who wear a belt and suspenders. There are times his approach is needed, but I don't live in NY or CA.

 

[Nature Boy]

No I don't. After I've bought all the supplies to make ammo I don't have any left to buy store bought.

 

[Don McDowell]

Back in the late 70's when Dick Metcalf wrote a column in Shooting Times titled Firearms Law, there actually were a couple of civil suits filed by attorneys on behalf of the shooting victim, that did use the handholds were a willful intent to inflict damage argument.

 

[Master Blaster]

.22lr, shotgun shells and a small amount of Factory Self defense premium ammo for carry guns.

 

[Jlr2267]

Back in the late 70's when Dick Metcalf wrote a column in Shooting Times titled Firearms Law, there actually were a couple of civil suits filed by attorneys on behalf of the shooting victim, that did use the handholds were a willful intent to inflict damage argument.

Seems kinda silly, considering that *shooting* someone in and of itself is "willful intent to inflict damage," regardless of ammo choice

Personally, I can't see how handloading has anything to do with it, but I'm not a lawyer...

 

[Don McDowell]

Have to keep in mind, that in that time period the press had dubbed the 158 gr jhp bullet in the 357 and +p 38 specials as "dumdum" bullets designed specifically to kill humans with...
That was in the dark days after the GCA 68 when we even had to sign the bound book for ammunition, and there was no mail order ammunition or components..
Times have changed a bit, but the silliness a lawyer will go thru, to win a damages lawsuit has not changed.

 

[mgmorden]

Yes. Brand new brass is expensive - particularly if you can only find expensive new brass like Norma or Lapua whilst PPU or S&B ammo costs about the same loaded (I'm not a benchrest competitor, so to me I don't care about the brand much).

Plus there are a couple guns I own that I have never bothered investing in the dies for (9mm Makarov for example).

 

[GBExpat]

... but the silliness a lawyer will go thru, to win a damages lawsuit has not changed.

Ayup, there is always that.

 

[CraigC]

Most recent factory ammo purchase was 2 boxes of 44 Special. Man that brass is expensive!!!

I'd love to know what .44Spl brass was more expensive than .44Mag? I see this complaint all the time but never encountered this issue myself.

Starline .44Spl - $104/500rds
Starline .44Mag - $105/500rds

9mm is my "new .22LR". With the Pro 1k, I can reload 50 rounds in 10 minutes for about $5.00. It's fast and easy, no reason not to save $.

I'd probably feel the same way if I had a bunch of 9mm's and shot them all the time. I don't. I have two 9mm's but four dozen revolvers I'd rather be shooting.

I'm in a situation where my money is worth more than my time. Not everyone is the same.

I know, there is no single answer for all situations. I'm in a situation where I don't have a lot of time to spend loading. I work 365 days a year at my regular business, plus the leatherwork, in addition to the usual marital and family responsibilities. If I have an hour to handload, I'd rather spend it loading .44Spl, .44Mag, .45Colt, .38-40, etc., where I save $20-$50 for every 50rds, rather than 9mm where I'd only save $5.

This is an extreme example but factory Winchester .38-40 is $86/50rds. I can duplicate that load with a 180gr cast bullet for about $7 or a 180gr Gold Dot for about $16.

 

[CraigC]

Back in the late 70's when Dick Metcalf wrote a column in Shooting Times titled Firearms Law, there actually were a couple of civil suits filed by attorneys on behalf of the shooting victim, that did use the handholds were a willful intent to inflict damage argument.

And yet, when challenged on this very forum, Ayoob provided no factual basis for this theory.

 

[Don McDowell]

Can't answer for Ayoob never read any of his stuff, but I do distinctly remember those Firearms Law columns, and might even have a few of those magazines on hand..

 

[Reloadron]

This is getting really off topic and I would venture as to using hand loads the results can vary state to state. For example here in Ohio the question is was the use of deadly force justified? Now if that is affirmative then it would matter not. I can shoot the sob with a 44 Magnum Hornady XTP hot hand load, beat them to death with a baseball bat or #3 iron or run them over with my truck. It is difficult to find cases where the shooter is convicted and even then need to look at everything and the state. There are never any winners with this discussion.

If I resort to the use of deadly force and that is justified my objective is plain and simple, I am trying to kill the sob, matters not how I get it done defending myself.

Just My Take
Ron

 

[buck460XVR]

As I said, I'll occasionally buy a box or two of factory ammo to have when someone not family or close friend, comes out to our range to shoot my guns. I like to turn new shooters on to the sport and I enjoy sharing some of my platforms with folks that are interested. I also bought a two boxes of 100 .380ACP when I bought my boys their LCPs for Christmas this year. I also bought dies, once fired brass and bullets. The factory ammo was to compare my handloads. Found out the little pocket pistols like my handloads much more than factory.

I do handload all my defensive ammo. I load to SAAMI specs with standard JHP bullets used in factory defensive ammo. I label all my ammo and keep records of everything I load. Nuttin "cop killer or "nut case" about any of it. Easy to duplicate and easy to test for GSR. Rounds left in the gun will be the same as the ones in the BG.

I also don't "chase" brass. Along with my revolvers, I also shoot semi-auto pistols, lever action carbines and bolt action carbines in handgun calibers. These throw brass just as far as my pistols. Wheteher I shoot at our private range on our property(99% of the time) or at the local Sportsman Club I belong to, I always have a 12X15 painter's cloth on the ground beside me. It catches dang near everything thrown at it and rolling it up at the end of the day with several hundred empties in it is no harder than pickin' empties outta my revolvers.

I reload when I have the time....not when I need the ammo. On cold winter days after football is done, I generally create thousands of rounds in every caliber I shoot. Many times I prep brass in that half hour while my wife is making supper or there's nuttin' on T.V. that night. I probably only average 500-800 rounds of various ammo a month, but I've yet to run out.....even tho it all gets loaded on a SS. If I'm running low on .357, I'll probably just shoot more .44 next time out till I get time to reload more .357. I vary the guns I shoot every time out anyway. Some calibers I do only save $5 a box on. If I shoot 20 boxes a year of that caliber, that's $100. On other calibers it's much more. Like $50 or more on a box of 50 .460 hunting cartridges. Altho I reload to save money so I can shoot more, I also reload to get more accurate and consistent ammo. It took me three tries to get the right load so that my boy's LCP shot exactly to POA @ 10 yards. Factory wasn't even close.

 

[Trailduster79]

Only factory ammo I have bought in a long time is .22lr and I bought a box or two of 7.62x54r while I was waiting on reloading components to come in. Haven't bought any other factory ammo in a year or two.

 

[Shaq]

I know this isnt what my thread was about, but I'm glad you mentioned it. I keep seeing this over and over and over. What's the logic behind this statement? How would anyone even know its a handload once its already spent? I know people, including some cop friends, that couldnt walk into my loading room and tell me the difference in my stuff and the factory stuff laying around. How and the world would they figure it out once the bullet and powder are gone and the primer is burnt on the inside?

No one can tell my handloads from factory ammo either.
Here are the legal issues:
After use in a defensive situation, your gun & ammo will be confiscated. If you are charged (which is likely), part of the evidence presented will be test results on your gun & ammunition. With factory ammo, the test will be simple to reproduce. With handloads, it will be much more complicated - what brand of primer, what type of powder, what was the powder charge, what brand & weight of bullet, etc.

A more-serious issue: The D.A. will say something like, "Ladies & gentlemen of the jury: The defendant was not satisfied with the lethality of regular factory ammunition used by police officers; he wanted to participate in the making of his own, home-brewed ammo to increase the amount of injury to his poor, helpless victim." Of course, that is all B.S. but juries aren't all gun people & they may believe the B.S. especially if they are anti gun. Your future freedom will be at their mercy & you don't want to provide any help. Other things that can hurt you - grips with skulls on them, ammo that is called "R.I.P." The D.A. will use those to make you appear obsessed with death, shooting, etc. I also wouldn't have a lighter trigger in a defensive gun. "This defendant put a lighter trigger in his gun to enable him to shoot more bullets faster into his victim to ensure more bleeding & death."

What would your answer be if you're asked, "Why wouldn't you use regular factory ammunition that police use? You can do more research on this subject by asking experts in that field - like Massad Ayoob.

 

[dirtengineer]

Good deals sometimes, to get brass, or to rule out failures due to reloads.

 

[shooter_from_show-me]

Only SD ammo for my 9mm's. Everything else is handloads.

Since I can't find Winchester Ranger ammo at a reasonable price no more have opted to try this stuff out. Lil hotter than that of the Ranger 147gr ammo(60fps). Stinks as the day after I purchased 10 boxes for $26.45/box he dropped his price by $2/box[emoji17]

www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/9mm-147gr-p-federal-premium-tactical-hst-jhp-50rds-p9hst4

 

[shooter_from_show-me]

Only 22lr or if I buy a new firearm the first 50-100 rounds will be factory so if there is an out-of-the-box problem with it they can't blame the reloads.

And this LOL forgot about .22 lr ammo. But have all but given up on that. Not gonna shell out $.10/rnd or more for .22 [emoji17]

 

[Gun Master]

Yes, to all of the above.

Guess I'm too old &/or too lazy, too poor to start reloading to reload.

Man, I love to buy factory ammo when I get my little old Social Security check.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Nope...I have bought 1 box of new factory handgun ammo in my life.

 

[Jim Watson]

I buy .32 and most .380, although I do have dies and some brass for .380.
I buy 9mm and .38 defensive ammo, also for steel framed .45s.

I am still working on a carry load for my Commander, its recoil is hard on my arthritis, even for moderate practice runs. I can handle Major power factor, I am at present loading 200 gr XTP to 850 fps. If I feel like I have to have factory, the only thing I know of in that range is Asym Practical Match, a 230 at 750.

 

[LOLBELL]

Rimfire and 380. The 380 is to small for my fat fingers to fool with. We don't shoot a whole bunch of it anyway.

 

[ilmonster]

I buy .223/5.56 for my AR (1K rounds at a time), otherwise I reload for .38, 9mm, .44 Spcl, 45 ACP and 45-70 to feed my 1895. Oh, also have reloaded shot shells on my MEC 9000 for years.