Does 1x scope on a rifle/carbine acts similar to a red-dot?

[miko]

I am planning to install a variable 1-4 shotgun scope on my 357 carbine.

Am I correct in believing that I will be able to use it kind of like a red-dot scope at 1x - fast aiming, reasonably wide FOV, etc. - while having an option to dial magnification to 4x for that 150 yards shot?

Quick-deatach rings, of course.

miko

 

[MikeJackmin]

I don't have one, but yes, I expect that's exactly what it could do. Just be sure the eye relief is correct for your intended application.

 

[ArmedBear]

No, a 1X scope would be very different from a Red Dot.

The dot in a red dot, reflex, holosight, etc. moves througout the field of view. So, if your head isn't lined up perfectly, the dot might be in the far upper left corner of the scope, but it would still indicate where your bullet or shot pattern will hit. Also, red dot sights without magnification let you look straight through glass, so you don't have to be lined up with the eyepiece, like you do with a scope.

A 1-4X scope has a series lenses, even if you dial it down to 1X, so if your head isn't lined up perfectly, you won't see much, just like a 3-9X scope.

So, a red dot is faster, because you can acquire the target before seating the gun on your shoulder or getting your eye lined up, and because you can see straight through the glass from any angle.

What's even faster is a gun that fits, with an express sight or a buckhorn (or a shotgun with a bead), and a lot of practice getting it shouldered in exactly the right place, quickly, and hitting targets. A red dot can be a good tool to add to that mix, as is a scout-mounted scope.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't get a 1-4X scope, but it doesn't offer the quick acquisition you want.

Now you can get a low-magnification scope with a red dot (I think that's what an ACOG is, but I've never used one). Then you do get the best of both worlds. ...for more money than your carbine cost, probably...

But you might be happiest with a scout mount. Try one if you can.

 

[AK103K]

I think the answer is "sort of". I have low powered forward mounted scopes on a couple of rifles and a rear mounted 1.5x5 Leupold on a flat top AR, and you can shoot very quickly with them, and with good results. I also have a number of rifles with forward mounted Aimpoints, and the dots are faster to shoot with.

Either way, if your used to the rifle and have the scope or dot sight mounted low, so the rifle shoulders naturally, they both will give you an aiming point without looking for it. Just look at your target and either a cross hair or dot will appear where you are looking. The dot picks up quicker though, at least for me.

I do what your suggesting with my AR with the Leupold on it. Even though its rear mounted, it still works well at its lowest power setting for, quick fast shooting at close range. Set on 5x, it lets you be more precise at longer ranges. I find it works very well.

 

[Rob96]

Many are finding the low power, 1x-4x scopes to be a good piece of kit for their ARs. Not all scopes are true 1x. In the shotgun scope category, the only true 1x scope that I know of is the Weaver 1x-4x. For my AR, I have opted to order a Burris 2x-7x scope. Should still be pretty good for close in, and very good for out to 300yds.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

ArmedBear described the difference between a red dot and a low-power variable well. The red dot is not as sensitive to cheek weld and has unlimited eye relief, so it is easy to be very fast with one.

I would disagree that the low-power variable is always slower though. If you are willing to put in the time to build good muscle memory with regard to cheek weld, then a low-power variable on 1x can be every bit as fast as a red dot. There is a thread in the library thread tacked in this forums comparing times for a fixed 3.5x ACOG, low-power variable, and Eotech red dot. The variable comes out very well in times and accuracy.

 

[Jackal]

I had a Nikon 1x20 and it was very fast. Eye relief and head position was not sensitive at all. I recommend them to anyone looking for a fast shooting, non red dot sight. Plenty accurate out to 100 yards.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I was looking for a link for you, but I see Cabella's has discontinued my scope...

a few years back, they offered what they were calling a 0X scope in their Alaskan Guide series... this particular glass had a monsterous field of view ( almost double that of some other 1 power scopes, & incredible eye relief adjustability... I bought one to put on a custom Marlin Lever action converted to 50 A.E., with the intent that I could shoot heavy cast bullets, as a dangerous game rifle... you could easily leave both eyes open & hit a target with it... it's a shame they disconinued them... I should have bought a few of them...

... but the discription of the differences between a scope & dot sight are accurate...

 

[sgist]

A major advantage of the 1-4x would be the adjustability. It is nice to have the 4x for benchrest or up to 100 yards. 1x is great for dangerous game or quick target aquisition. Meopta has a very nice illuminated kdot, and if you have big bucks the Schmidt and Bender Short Dot is the cats meow. Elcan has a military type 1/4x which although heavy and expensive is interesting.
OOPS-
I guess these are out of your price range, but they are nice.

 

[ArmedBear]

If you are willing to put in the time to build good muscle memory with regard to cheek weld, then a low-power variable on 1x can be every bit as fast as a red dot.

That's true. However, if you're willing to put in the time to build good muscle memory with regard to cheek weld, you don't need either one.

One of the best trapshooters I know shoots 7/8 oz. loads through a full choke, and he took the beads off his shotgun. He found them to be a distraction; with the right cheek weld, he doesn't even consciously see the barrel, just the puff of dust where the clay pigeon used to be.

Winning CAS shooters have to do the same thing with a lever gun. You don't win speed competitions by aiming consciously.

Personally, I always wondered what a scout mount was really good for, until I shouldered a Steyr Scout, and then a Ruger Frontier. I liked the Frontier better, BTW. It shouldered like a shotgun: I looked at the target, then brought the rifle to my shoulder and Holy Crap! the target was in the crosshairs. I'd take that over a red dot or a regular scope any day, if I want fast acquisition with some flexibility for distance.

The .357 drops like a stone past 150 yards, so there's simply no downside to the scout mount, as far as I can tell.

 

[AK103K]

However, if you're willing to put in the time to build good muscle memory with regard to cheek weld, you don't need either one.

Well, maybe. Depends on what and how far your shooting. Snap shots up close, your right, but those fast, and even snap shots at a distance still usually need that split second of fine correction.

You don't win speed competitions by aiming consciously.

True, but you still aim, conscious or not, and as the range increases, so does your awareness of the sights and automatically fine tuning them.

The advantage to the sight being forward is, its not right in your face or blocking your field of view. Your not really seeing the scope or dot sight body itself when the gun comes up, but just the cross hairs or dot on what your looking at.

One thing on the dot sights. You still really need to shoulder the rifle properly and center that dot as best you can, especially with the cheaper dot sights, as parallax is an issue. Its not as big an issue with the Aimpoints, but I've shot a few Tasco's and Bushnells that would not put the bullet where the dot was if it wasnt close to center. If your practiced with your iron sights and the rifle shoulders naturally, its really not an issue, as the dot will most likely be right in the center when the gun comes up.

Ruger is catching on with shortening the stock on the Frontier,(I wish the others would follow their lead) but they need to loose the pad and go to a buttplate, as do most all the others. I'm also making the assumption that the first thing you will need to do is send your new Frontier out and get the obligatory "Ruger trigger job" too. Ruger really needs to do something about their triggers, both rifle and handgun. I'm not real pick about triggers, but Rugers have been historically terrible.

 

[ArmedBear]

If your practiced with your iron sights and the rifle shoulders naturally, its really not an issue, as the dot will most likely be right in the center when the gun comes up.

That's a catch-22, though, because if that's the case, you can save on money, weight and batteries, and can the red dot altogether. You can do the fine-tuning you mentioned (a good point) with the right kind of irons or peeps, or a forward-mounted scope for real precision.

I think that the red dot's greatest advantage is allowing quick followup shots or multiple shots, hence its application in SWAT and military CQB. Quick initial acquisition is, as you said, more about muscle memory coupled with fine tuning.

WRT the Ruger, I think that what I like about it most is that the balance of the stubby little gun works with the scope, so it's not muzzle-heavy. What I like least is the price, particularly of the stainless one.

 

[AK103K]

If I had to choose between the two, I'd take the dot over the scope. The dot is definitely faster, snap shots, multiple targets, day, night, indoors or outdoors, bright open fields or dark woods, you always have an aiming point that is just there where your rifle is looking. I never find myself looking for the dot to put on the target, I look at the target and the dot confirms the shot.(this is also usually the case with the forward mounted scopes too, but there are times you dont always get a crosshair.)

The scopes are OK if everything is right, but there are a lot of times you loose the crosshairs, even the heavy ones, in differing lights or backgrounds. For me, I also find the scope tends to often offer to much target info, which tends to slow me down just a tad. With a dot or peep sights, I think you tend to shoot faster without thought.

The ideal thing would probably be a scope with a red dot at the cross hair intersection, best of both worlds, but I've only ever seen one in an advertisement, never in person.

 

[44AMP]

Post and crosswire

For 30 some years, my favorite scope for woods shooting whitetail had been a low power <4x with a post and crosswire reticle. This kind of reticle isn't very popular today, "plex" dominates, but the post is awesome fast when you need it, and it shows up pretty well when the light is faint. Better than crosshairs, even thick ones. Properly mounted, a 2.5x post is just as fast as anything optical. Just look through the tube, and the post is the front sight.

I have 1.5x, 2.5x, 3x, and 4x, and a 1.5-4x and a 2-7x variable, old Weavers that I have picked up at the gun shows, usually pretty cheap. Maybe not quite as good as new models, but they work well enough for me. A little harder to shoot pretty groups with, but just fine for deer size and bigger critters. Also, no batteries. Ever. I don't hunt with the Energizer bunny. At least not anything serious.

And, they work in bright sunshine too. Can't say that for all the red dots out there. Some do, but others....

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think it really comes down to your eyes. If you have great 20/20 vision, then it will be hard to argue against the red dot. It is very fast and easy to train with, particularly at the ranges where a .357 carbine would be relevant.

On the other hand, once your eyes start to go, it can sometimes be hard to even acquire a target at 100yds in brush depending on the size, color, etc. In those cases, the low power variable gives you a little flexibility.

 

[Dienekes]

A bit off the immediate topic, but I put a 1.5 x 24 compact ACOG on an AR a while back and some of that relates. Since a primary reason was to rely less on iron sights (I can still use them, but I have to be wearing the right glasses for the particular rifle I'm using) I sprung for this.

Primary results: I can SEE--really, really SEE. Great clarity, even with only 1.5 power. The amber triangle reticle is 8 MOA. Inasmuch as the AR is a 16" shorty, I regard it as a 150 yard weapon. However I can ding things out to 250 yards from a solid position, and it is very fast close in. Field of view is more than sufficient, and eye relief is long and forgiving. If there is a down side to this optic it can only be the price--and to me, well worth it.

This might be the extreme case but it demonstrates what a good optic can do for the shooter today.

I have a couple of old Weaver fixed power scopes around; one is a 1.5X with a big heavy post. It is a little tired and discolored, but I'll bet it would still do a good job within its limitations. My daughter has a 3X on her .243, and my '06 carries an ancient 4X.

I suspect less is more.

 

[Stiletto Null]

Two words:

Scout mount.

 

[Rob96]

On the other hand, once your eyes start to go, it can sometimes be hard to even acquire a target at 100yds in brush depending on the size, color, etc. In those cases, the low power variable gives you a little flexibility.

Or if you have astigmatism, which prevents you from using the red dots.

 

[miko]

I have received and installed the Bushnell Banner 1-4 scope on my 1894C. I had to use medium Burris rings on Warne bases in order to leave the (folded) iron rear sight.

While it is not exactly the same as a red-dot, I'd say it works the same for my practical purposes. It is more demanding towards the position of the eye, but the acceptable range is so wide as to make no difference in the speed of acquisition. As an added bonus, the scope corrects for my mild near-sightedness.

The image is just a tad bigger than 1x but I can use both eyes no problem.

miko

 

[AK103K]

Or if you have astigmatism, which prevents you from using the red dots.

This is actually the first I've ever heard of this. I have an astigmatism and I have no trouble shooting a red dot.

 

[miko]

^^^ You mean "red line"?

miko

 

[Bottom Gun]

I just put a low power Nikon scope up for sale here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=228530

I have one of these on an AR15 and it is very fast.