Red Dot on an M1 Carbine?

[Sven]

I was thinking about a new project, and now I'm obsessed... here's the idea:

Take an M1 carbine (maybe IAI) and add a removable 1x red dot as a 'past meets present' sport-utility carbine for use from 5-100 yards.

Fulton Armory is advertising the following:

21st Century Carbine!

Scope Mount

ARMS QD Ring

Aimpoint

-

Drool....

Has anyone here had experience with an M1 with a rot dot or other optics installed?

Thoughts?

 

[dude]

LEOs have been using red-dot M1s for quite a while in some places

.........there is a simple but effective weaver rail that replaces the rear sight. I might put a red-dot on my IAI one day.

 

[Sactown]

Take an M1 carbine (maybe IAI) and add a removable 1x red dot as a 'past meets present' sport-utility carbine for use from 5-100 yards.

Whew!!...I thought you were talking about putting one on your Winchester. If you get a red dot for 100yds, I would suggest a model that maybe has an adjustable size dot. The dot may cover too much of the target at 100yds. Have you considered a 1-4X scope with the traditional cross hairs?

 

[Marshall]

OK I have 2 aimpoint on revolvers and I also have an M1 Carbine. Now that I have seen them together it has to happen!
TY very much.

 

[Sven]

Marshall: Glad to hear it!

Now begins the search for the perfect mount. The design shown above can be taken off with the swing of a lever. Looks good, for iron sight fail-over.

Others - lacking that feature - appear to allow you to sight while the dot is mounted, such as this one I just found on GunBroker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=7633438

Would like to hear advice from those who have persued this before - what mounts work well, and which particular red dot did you choose?

Something either fixed at 1x or variable from 1-4x, with a standard recticle or red dot sounds just about right for anything from CQB out to 75 yards.

Lets keep this ball rolling!

-s

 

[dude]

easy on/off is good..........but your zero is gone (no matter what 'they' say!)


I'm gonna go with the monut like in your gunbroker link for my IAI (if my smith can ever find it again in his junk pile). Right now I have a Ultra 4 dot being fitted to my favorite Dan Wesson. If it does not do it for me I'll put it on the Carbine

 

[Pappy John]

Here ya go.

I used the cheapo mount from Cheaper than Dirt and it needed some major mechanical reworking to keep from shooting loose, but it works well now.

 

[Pappy John]

A better pic

This was just an experiment to see what kind of accuracy I could get out of my carbine with a dot, so I didn't spend much cash on it. That's the cheapest BSA scope that I could find. It has a 4 MOA dot and that's pretty much what it shoots now...4MOA. The only problem I have now is shooting low with a cold barrel by 6" at 50 yds. It takes around 10 shots to climb into the zone it'll stay at with the barrel warmed up. I'm thinking about losing the bayonet mount to see if that improves.

 

[curt]

I use an aimpoint with a 3 MOA dot on my AR and don't have any problem with practical accuracy at 100yds. I don't think there would by a problem with an M1 ,given its 100 yd accuracy, either. I use the aimpoint guick release mount on mine with little to no change in zero. I've become less of a fan of see through mounts due to the fact that they move your optic up too high and they sometimes provide too little a tunnel for the irons, thats why i went with a cowitnessed ARMS 40 flip up sight on my AR. However on the M1 if you want an instant backup capability you'd have to go with see throughs. I wouldn't go with a magnified (or certainly nothing over 2x) optic as you really don't get that much more over a 1x reddot at 100-150 yds and you give up something in weight, simplicity and quickness at CQB distances in my non-operator opinion.

I can't wait to see your M1903 with reddot!

 

[Sven]

Curt:

How much does POI move upon re-mounting, generally?

I'm not too concerned about it, as this would be a fail-over option... ie, taking it off and not putting it on again until after the skirmish.

BTW: Who's got an M1903?

-sven, with Carbine-itis

 

[curt]

Sven,
Well i've never done a real test of repeatability but i would guess the combined POI shift of the mount and the nut behind the trigger is about 1-2" at 100yds. Not significant in my book and this may not represent any shift in the mounts zero at all cause: most of the times i've removed it i've been messing with something else which might have caused the shift, Its a 3 MOA dot against a 1-2" bullseye, i shoot outdoors at quantico and there usually a crosswind which i don't really compensate for, and finally my groups sometimes require some errr estimation to compute the center.

i don't think any minimal shift in a qualityredot intended for CQB is significant espeacially since as you pointed out it would come off and not go back on until a calmer time.

About the 1903, i just figured anyone putting a reddot on a 60 year old warhorse design might consider further wackiness

 

[El Rojo]

I had a red-dot M1 Carbine builder I put together. Never was completely satisfied with it. I pretty much lock-tighted the heck out of the mount to keep it from coming lose. I think there is something wrong with my extractor, cause the gun stopped extracting right. I planned on selling it, so I had to take the mount off to get the serial number. Well the lock tite worked! had to drill the mount off!

It was sort of a novel idea, but i prefer the iron sights for dependability honestly. I like the idea of having a good low light optic for the M1 Carbine as the original sights are difficult to see at night or in low light. I just didn't find the combination worked well with the gun I had it on. Maybe a new IMI would be cool with one on it.

Cheap red dots are cheap and so are the $20 scope mounts for M1 Carbines. Try it. What do you have to lose.

I consider the M1 Carbine the poor man's AR. Now that I live in a SB23 PRK, I wish I would have just bought an AR when I had the chance!

 

[Onslaught]

I finally gave up on red-dotting the M1 Carbine I had. I'm spoiled with my red-dots on my AR. I want irons and dots... no compromise I knew that the M1 Carbine, Choate Pistol grip stock, and scout mounted red-dot would be PERFECT, but nothing was readily available.

Uncle Mike's made one, but it was a "mono-mount" with a fixed 1" ring. It clamped to the barrel in the "scout" position, but again, you had to use 1" optics. (and modify the handguard).

I had an idea to use the "M14" mount from Surefire. It could mount on the barrel, weaver rail "UP" (modified handguard again) but you could use a regular ring. It might even be possible to "see through" to your irons. You MIGHT have to open up the inside of the stock a bit, I'm not sure...

One last option (that doesn't exist YET) is from http://www.ultimak.com/ . I e-mailed them a while back after I saw their new Mini-14 mount, and asked if they had plans to make a similar mount for the M1 Carbine. They said they did, along with the FAL, PC9, and a few others. It was just a matter of time... I think it would be the best option.

 

[dude]

above it says:

"I consider the M1 Carbine the poor man's AR. Now that I live in a SB23 PRK, I wish I would have just bought an AR when I had the chance!"




I would consider the M1 Carbine the thinking man's AR for urban & home defence.

Don't forget that it was made to replace or supplment a pistol.........not as a battle rifle. One in decent shape can hit beer cans at 100 yards all day w/o a jam.

It has the 30 round mag capability, light recoil, .357mag performance*, reliability and ease of handeling with it's short size that make it perfect so-called 'carbine' w/o the over-penetration of the .223. (i'm not of the crowd that buys the 2650fps .223 shattering on drywall&plywood....as I have tested at the range for myself)



........... or the worry about such things as pistol-grips or the latest legal 'lee press-on' fake flash supressor.











*with the right $$$ ammo (that you would only use for self defence while using the cheap mil-surp FMJ for plinking/training)

 

[Onslaught]

or the worry about such things as pistol-grips or the latest legal 'lee press-on' fake flash supressor.

Ah, but if you PREFER pistol grips and flash supressors... The M1 Carbine can do that too (I don't do "press-on's... mine's pre-ban )

 

[dude]

.........and it can do pistol grip post ban.

I'm thinking of souping up an old .30 Carbine with a Choate pistol grip stock that has been modifyed with M-16 collapseable stock and some red-dot optics. I will call it the .30 CARbine

 

[Sven]

You guys should help me out on some other discussions - i'm basically getting laughed off the other boards for this suggestion.

Start here on Jouster, for example:

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/carbine/carbine.pl?read=17696

...This is what we Texans used to refer to as "putting a $100 saddle on a $10 horse"...

Also BattleRifles.com:

http://www.battlerifles.com/viewtopic.php?t=8677

No replies. I guess I'm barking up the wrong tree with the collectors, who get their panties in a bunch if you DARE touch a USGI weapon in any way with ANYTHING made after 1944...

So much for open minds. I'll stick to The High Road.

 

[dude]

the Battle Rifle place is a joke...........if you do not buy US GI and leave it that way they fell you are not worthy of air

 

[Sven]

Onslaught: Thanks for the lead on Ultimak.

I called them and spoke with Lyle, who was extremely helpful. He confirmed that the M1 Carbine mount is in the works. He said that it would mount similar to the Mini-14 product and referrred me to the following link for a visual (click image for link):




No permanent modifications will be necessary to the weapon, and - although the Red Dot would block the iron sights while mounted - a removable base would allow fail-over to iron sights if necessary.

This is looking great - the best part? Lyle says that this product should be available within 6 months.

Developing...

 

[dude]

6 months.............i'll be all over that when it comes out!!

 

[Sven]

With apologies to narrow bandwidth High Roaders

Someone on Jouster said that there would be ejection problems, potentially. As the brass kicks up and back, it might hit the scope, banging it up, etc.

The solution might be an optic mounted in front of the chamber... such as for this AK:



How about an illuminated recticle, such as the Trinicon A.C.O.G. Reflex II... good for low light work... no batteries.



More information on the Triji from UltiMAK: http://www.ultimak.com/Rx06.htm

Look at this sight picture... at 50 yards, the recticle is probably pretty close to the practical accuracty of the carbine in close range urban:



Old school, new school.

 

[Marshall]

Sven,

Good luck man! If you get it worked out, let us know! As for screrwing up the iron sights, big damn deal. They are crap anyway, that little peep sight ain't worth a damn in my opinion. Ya wan't to know how I really feel about them?

Personally, I think a M1 carbine is a terrific platform for a dot scope, if it can be mounted well is another matter. I am with you, if you want something you want something, screw em if they don't like it. Ya want to know how I feel about that too?

 

[Onslaught]

although the Red Dot would block the iron sights while mounted

Two words... A.R.M.S. #5 (well, actually that's 4 letters, a symbol, and a number, but you knew what I meant)

You can't see it from this angle, but there's a see-thru channel under that rail. Sure, it would put the scope about 3/4" higher, but you could still see your irons!

 

[Pappy John]

"Someone on Jouster said that there would be ejection problems, potentially. As the brass kicks up and back, it might hit the scope, banging it up, etc."

I just looked at mine and there ARE some very small dings in the finish on the underside of the scope's tube, but nothing on the objective lens surface. Since I mounted the dot I've put around 200 rounds through it without a hiccup, though that might change if you mounted something that was more overtop the bolt.

 

[Gordon]

I have a Ranch Products forward scout mount for my M-1 for 15 years or so. Ranch products also made the first full moon .45 clips. I don't know if they are still in business, I'll look.I used a 2X Leupold pistol scope(before scout scopes).I did search:Ranch Products
PO Box 145
Malinta, Ohio USA 43535
Phone: 313-277-3118
Fax: 313-565-8536
www.ranchproducts.com Although I didn't see M-1 mount in current listing I'll bet they have them still.