Does an M14 really "turn cover into concealment"?

[GBExpat]

During the Second Boer War, at the battle of Spion Kop, the British dug hasty trenches, throwing the spoil in front to form a parapet. The Boers, armed with 7X57 Mausers, fired at the parapet and "ate" through it, killing British soldiers who thought they were under cover. ...

Hmmmm ... it has been many years since I studied the Boer War but, relative to the battle of Spion Kop, I was left with the impression that the primary issue that the British suffered from the Boer rifle fire was that (too) much of it was enfilading in nature.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Spion Kop has three crests. The British, climbing up in the dark, did not realize that and occupied the lowest of the three. Under fire from the other two crests, they dug hasty trenches, which failed them as I stated earlier.

After dark, a relief force was sent up, and met the remnants of the original force coming down. The combined force went down and convinced Sir Redvers Buller, the commander that the battle was lost.

In the meantime, the Boers had left their positions and were inspanning their wagons preparing to retreat. Louis Botha galloped from lager to lager, persuading volunteers to re-ascend the mountain. When the Boers got to the crests again, they found the British gone, their trenches filled with dead.

 

[tomrkba]

7.52x51mm is certainly able to chew up many types of cover with repeated hits.

A much better way to put it, as stated by Michael Bane, is that all cover has an expiration date. Some cover will resist repeated hits from bullets than others. Bad guys will maneuver so they can get a shot from a different angle. Regardless of what is occurring, you will need to consider your next few moves in advance before you go to cover. Once there, and presumably firing back, you'll need to assess the situation and move to the next piece of cover that makes the most sense.

 

[chopinbloc]

Sorry, I was away camping so I could not reply earlier. Lots of great points in this thread. Someone mentioned that I used a cinder block, not a concrete block. I thought cinder blocks were made of concrete but it wouldn't be the first time I was mistaken.

In any case, this is just the first in a series of tests where I plan to determine whether there are any common objects that can stop M855 but not M80. Based on anecdotal evidence, it appears that there is a Goldilocks tree that will do just that but I'd guess there are a great deal more trees that will stop both or neither. Same goes for other objects. I suspect there are few that are just right to stop one cartridge but not the other. Any suggestions for what I should test next?

 

[rcmodel]

Hatchers note book has Ordanance Depertment penetration tables for 150 grain M1 ball ammo.
200 yards - average penetration.

1/4" armor - 0.1".
Gravel -7.0".
Brick masonary - 4.3".
Concrete - 4.0".
Solid Oak - 13.8".
Dry Sand -6.5".
Moist Sand - 7.3".
Loam earth -24.1".
Clay - 24.6".
Loose Earth -19.0".

Water at 90 degree angle - 3.5 feet.

rc

 

[OilyPablo]

I noticed the cinder block moved quite a bit. Probably a bit more realistic if the block was anchored. I guess rebar and concrete filled would have helped protect the defenseless water jug.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I think the 308 will result in less things being cover relative to a 223. I think in most homes, there isn't a lot of good cover to begin with so I'm not sure it matters much. Now I will watch the video....

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Hatchers note book has Ordanance Depertment penetration tables for 150 grain M1 ball ammo.
200 yards - average penetration.

1/4" armor - 0.1".
Gravel -7.0".
Brick masonary - 4.3".
Concrete - 4.0".
Solid Oak - 13.8".
Dry Sand -6.5".
Moist Sand - 7.3".
Loam earth -24.1".
Clay - 24.6".
Loose Earth -19.0".

Water at 90 degree angle - 3.5 feet.

rc

If I ever build my home, I've wanted to use those insulated concrete foam blocks with the ones that allow for the concrete to be 14" thick. I hadn't looked up the numbers but glad to see it would hold up well to rifle fire. Not sure what I'd do for doors and windows.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If I ever build my home, I've wanted to use those insulated concrete foam blocks with the ones that allow for the concrete to be 14" thick. I hadn't looked up the numbers but glad to see it would hold up well to rifle fire. Not sure what I'd do for doors and windows.

If someone is shooting up your home with 7.62X51mm, you'd be better off investing your money in an escape tunnel.

 

[LemmyCaution]

If I ever build my home, I've wanted to use those insulated concrete foam blocks with the ones that allow for the concrete to be 14" thick. I hadn't looked up the numbers but glad to see it would hold up well to rifle fire. Not sure what I'd do for doors and windows.

When I build my house I'm going to consider whether or not resistance to gunfire is a likely enough need to justify the huge cost of effectively implementing such capabilities. Then I'm going to save myself a bunch of time and money by moving to a better neighborhood.

Of course, if one is the sort of person who attracts gunfire regardless of where you live, due to the vagaries of your nature, this might not be an option.

 

[joem1945]

Skyshot: "My bet goes on the .308. My dad had some blacktip 06 ball ammo from the 1950's that had become corroded, I pulled the bullets and loaded them in some .308 rounds and they where scary."

My understanding of federal law on armor piercing ammo would make that illegal to manufacture. .30-06 black tip ammo has a waver as long as it's .30-06. I've been wrong before and might be this time.

 

[The Alaskan]

If someone is shooting up your home with 7.62X51mm, you'd be better off investing your money in an escape tunnel.

Or moving to a better neighborhood.

 

[CornCod]

As a college instructor of Criminal Justice I show that Naval Weapons Lab film to my students in my forensic science classes. Good stuff. That's why X39 AK's are excellent urban warfare weapons.

 

[Conelrad]

What worked, what didn't

A number of years ago I did an impromptu test out in the desert with just those same calibers: 7.62 NATO vs 5.56mm, all GI issue ammo (M855 didn't exist then...)

We set up several scenarios, an old full-size American car (complete), roofing tin, and cardboard.

We put a sheet of cardboard in the front seat of the car, and another behind a large creosote bush.

We also put that sheet of tin behind another like bush.

Distance: 100' to the windshield or bush.
Weapons: HK91 and Colt AR-15 carbine.
Quantity: 20 rounds each.
Results: 5.56 had a half dozen solid hits on the cardboard in the car. Some dozen either stuck in the glass or just bounced off.

All 20 7.62 came out either the trunk lid or bumper of the car.

12 each 5.56 hits on the cardboard hiding behind the bush, 10 full penetrations in the tin, several dents.

20 each 7.62 holes/hits in both 'bushhiders'

We used to call AR's "poodle shooters".

DG

 

[nhcruffler]

At the range one day a fellow was shooting this rock that was about 70 yds away. He made repeated hits on this basetball size rock with his 223 AR. When I tried the same thing with my FAL the rock shattered.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

At the range one day a fellow was shooting this rock that was about 70 yds away. He made repeated hits on this basetball size rock with his 223 AR. When I tried the same thing with my FAL the rock shattered.

Obviously he softened it up for you...

 

[akodo]

I predict that the 223 round will be fired against a single brick neglecting the fact that when mortared together in a group they have more strength than a single individual round.

 

[chopinbloc]

That's an interesting idea. Do you have any empirical data to support the idea that the existence of blocks surrounding the target block are able to lend moral support? It is well known that compressive forces help to "knit" the bits of aggregate and cement together. I don't believe that would have any effect on the ability of a bullet to pass through.

You should totally build a few walls to shoot to test your hypothesis, though.






BTW, this was never meant to simulate shooting a wall, anyway. Block walls and fences vary significantly in both composition and construction. This is just one in a series of tests intended to observe whether M80 and M855 have any significant difference in their respective abilities to penetrate stuff.

 

[Nature Boy]

Wouldn't M193 vs. M80 be the better comparison?

 

[chopinbloc]

Maybe, but,

A: I have a lot more M855 to waste on stupid tests.
2: M855 was the primary type issued for the M16 for a longer period of time than M193.
III: M855 gives the 5.56mm the fairest chance.


Of course, you could always shoot your own test and share it with us...

 

[MIL-DOT]

Several years ago, me and a buddy were shooting my Rem700 PSS, and were using a good sized sweetgum tree to prop up a target. I was amazed to find that the rounds went completely through the tree, leaving a big,shredded hole, and then kept going.
Years later, a shooting buddy had 2 M1A's, and had a big dirt pile he used as a backdrop. I found that unless you hit VERY low on the pile, the rounds would go right through a surprising amount of dirt (mostly Georgia red clay).
All this convinced me that it's nearly impossible to hide from a .308/7.62x51 round.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Years later, a shooting buddy had 2 M1A's, and had a big dirt pile he used as a backdrop. I found that unless you hit VERY low on the pile, the rounds would go right through a surprising amount of dirt (mostly Georgia red clay).

That's exactly what happened at Spion Kop. The British made a parapet of the dirt scooped out of the trench, and the Boer 7X57 bullets went right through it.

 

[BudMan5]

I was inVietnam from January 1966 to September 1968 and flew about 3500 combat flight hours as a crew chief/door gunner on a UH-1C Huey gunship. During most of that time, I fired an M60 (7.62mm) until sometime after the 1968 Tet offensive when I changed to an XM-134 minigun ( also firing 7.62).
Before The '68 Tet Offensive, we mostly attacked tree lines and bunkers.
I could knock down trees including mahogany trees with my M60, and easily collapse bunkers even those with logs as overhead cover.
When the Tet Offensive started, we were sent into cities like Saigon and Bien Hoa where we attacked actual buildings made from wood, brick and steel framework none of which provided cover from the 7..62mm.
For the most part we were supporting troops in contact who could not penetrate the buildings (or trees, bunkers) with theirM16s.
No reason to conduct any tests, just ask any American service man who has been in combat since 1965.

 

[chopinbloc]

So you never had an opportunity to compare the effects of the M249 vs the M240B (or M60)?

As you can see, there really isn't much difference in the ability of the two cartridges to penetrate concrete blocks. They both get through but they both have pretty limited ability to wound on the other side.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

When I build my house I'm going to consider whether or not resistance to gunfire is a likely enough need to justify the huge cost of effectively implementing such capabilities. Then I'm going to save myself a bunch of time and money by moving to a better neighborhood.

Of course, if one is the sort of person who attracts gunfire regardless of where you live, due to the vagaries of your nature, this might not be an option.

I do, will live in good neighborhoods. Just want some thing very sturdy to all kinds of disasters. As best I can tell, there is less labor time involved in the reinforced concrete homes so they are similar to stick homes or at least not a large premium.