Does FOPA protect someone going to Vermont?

[bushmaster1313]

I know that FOPA protects someone taking a handgun (unloaded and in the trunk) from one State to another if it is legal at the start and at the end of the journey.

Does that include taking a handgun from New Jersey (where a handgun is only legal in one's residence) to just walk around in Vermont (where for most people it is legal anywhere)?

 

[NavyLCDR]

As a New Jersey resident you are taking your chances until you are outside of New Jersey. I assume you don't have a New Jersey pistol permit.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Affirnative defense
Burden on me

 

[crossrhodes]

YES

Yes you are covered while traveling through Vermont, it's the other states on our borders where you are going to have trouble. Vermont will honor permits from other states too.
FOPA is a non issue in this state if you are a card carrying FOPA or just passing through. If you are interested just google the firearm laws for Vermont it's only about a page long.

 

[Art Eatman]

FOPA cannot prevent hassles. Stipulating that you meet the federal law's conditions, however, FOPA would be a defense in court.

The problem is not the law; the problem is the ignorance of the law on the part of authoriities. Were I to live in an essentially anti-gun state or area, I would have a printout of the FOPA in my vehicle at all times. I would also be scrupulous as to obedience to traffic laws.

 

[hermannr]

Your problem is not Vermont, your problem is NJ, NY and MA. They are not known to abide by that federal law as concerns transportation of a firearm.

That said, yes, your firearm is legal at the beginning of the journey, your home, and is legal at the end of your journey, Vermont, so, in theory, you are covered.

As I told another person who was transporting THROUGH NY and NJ, be very careful not to attract attention to yourself. Use you cruise control, drive defensively, stop at all stoplights, and stop signs. No pushing a yellow light, be a law abiding citizen and you will have no problems.

I have in-laws in NY, and have been there many times. My Favorite Colt revolver was a gift from my FIL (45 years ago), I have never been stopped in NY. Just abide the law, you will be fine.

 

[NavyLCDR]

FOPA cannot prevent hassles. Stipulating that you meet the federal law's conditions, however, FOPA would be a defense in court.

The problem is not the law; the problem is the ignorance of the law on the part of authoriities.

I disagree Art, on two counts. First, the problem is the law. I believe most gun control laws violate the "shall not be infringed" phrase of the 2nd Amendment.

I disagree more strongly with the problem being ignorance of the law on the part of authorities. Your run of the mill traffic cop may not know about FOPA, but I'll bet the prosecuting attorney and judge does. I think more times than not, in cases where FOPA applies, all of the prosecuting parties and local judges know FOPA applies and the cop issuing the ticket probably does too. I think they prosecute anyway in the hopes that the defendant won't have the $$$ and other resources to appeal the conviction to a court that has jurisdiction to use FOPA to dismiss the charges.

Usually it's going to cost more to appeal such a conviction than what the fine is.

 

[CathyGo]

What does FOPA stand for? This thread caught my eye due to the fact that I'm traveling halfway across the country to go see family. I have no plans to remove the gun from the car in anti-gun states but I'd really like to take my handgun with me. I've stayed in hotels that have just made my skin crawl before. I had a Garand riding home with me last time that happened. Slept like a baby.

Is it a one-way transportation thing or do round trips check out under it too?

 

[dogrunner]

FOPA: Firearms owners protection act, passed in 1986.............Google it & you'll get the specifics.........it's somewhat restrictive relative to carry mode but does permit transit in areas that otherwise are forbidden......note also that it is an affirmative defense to prosecution, but certain jurisdictions choose to ignore it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

What does FOPA stand for?

Federal law:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html

18 USC 926A:

§ 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Actually, there is a bit of a problem here for NJ. To wit:

The law states that for FOPA protection to apply, it must be lawful for the person in question to 'possess and carry' the firearm at both ends of the trip.

In this case, the person in question does not have a carry license for the NJ end of the trip, therefore fails the strict language of the law.

My guess is that a prosecutor in NJ, NY or MA is going to take that and run, with generally disastrous results for any potential defendant.

 

[Art Eatman]

NavyLT, no argument whatsoever about "infringed". But, "they" have more guns than I do, so I figure I'll get infringed a lot.

I thought of the average cop in an anti-gun culture insofar as "hassle" when the more esoteric parts of the law are involved. But I've seen a few of the lower-level prosecutorial and judicial types that would have to double-up on smarts to get up to Stupid. County attorneys, JPs. Most are fine, some are arguments for retroactive birth control.

Regardless, the idea behind the FOPA was that folks like Bushmaster1313 should not be in any sort of jeopardy when engaged in lawful activity. It was pretty-much aimed at states like New Jersey and Massachusetts.

 

[mbogo]

FOPA covers that scenario; as previously stated, NJ, NY, and MA tend to ignore FOPA.

Keep the gun in the trunk and out of sight until you arrive in VT. Do not stop in NY and MA for any reason (gas, food, pit stops, whatever). If your route takes you through CT, make your stops there.

If stopped by a cop in any state, do not answer any questions about whether you have guns or drugs in the car. Ask if you are being detained. If the cop says no, then tell him you will be on your way.

If the cop says, yes, you are being detained, insist on a supervisor's presence and say nothing more.

Under NO circumstances should you agree to a search of the vehicle.

mbogo

 

[Quiet]

The Second Circuit Court of Appeals recently ruled that 18 USC 926A does not protect an individual from arrest/jail/firearm confiscation and is intended to protect the individual when used as a defense during trial.

 

[Tom488]

In this case, the person in question does not have a carry license for the NJ end of the trip, therefore fails the strict language of the law.

And I'd counter with, I began my trip from my house, where I AM permitted by law to possess and carry a firearm (NJ Statute 2C:39-6e).

 

[CathyGo]

Thank you for text of the law. I googled it afterwards and kept on getting interpretations instead of the text.

I'm an MP myself so don't anticipate any problems but I think I'll just disassemble my gun for the last leg of visiting family. I'll be in Illinois for an afternoon and those cops love to pull over people from out of state.

Good to know about the Second Circuits decision. I hate those kind of court decisions. As LE I don't want to arrest somebody that is protected in court from the exact charges about to be brought against them. Stupid and a waste of time for both parties involved.:banghead:

About LE reactions: I have never been educated to any degree on federal gun transportation laws and neither have most cops you'll run into. A polite explanation that you are just passing through and that's it's legal on both ends of your trip as allowed by federal law will at least get the cop to ask which law you're referencing in most cases. Getting beligerrent or telling me that "you will be on your way" after asking if you are "detained" probably isn't a good idea especially with a firearm involved. You'll wind up taking it to court that way. You may be right but it'll still be a much bigger PITA than taking the time to check your temper and patiently explain exactly what you are doing(passing through) and what protects your ability to do that(federal law referencing the statute number if you have it). Yes, I know you shouldn't have to teach LEOs the law but there are hundreds of gun laws alone on the books at the state and local level. You can't even hope to remember them all. Add in the traffic codes and you'd have to be a savant to memorize them all.

A traffic stop is a constant communication thing. Everybody on the shift hears if a gun owner is making an ass of himself. Everybody also will hear if the gun owner conducted themselves well and referenced a federal law that the cop didn't know about. If most shifts are like ours everybody compares notes at the end of the night so by educating that one officer you've actually educated most of the people on shift.

Always feel free to ask for a supervisor(be prepared to wait) and that the patrol cars camera system be turned on if it isn't already. I actually like the camera because it protects me as much as it protects the person pulled over. I'll join in not giving consent to search. No consent to search still means that I can search immediately accesible areas(drivers area, console) in some cases. Don't hesitate to call in a complaint about an officers behavior but do take a few minutes to calm down and think through EXACTLY what you want to say and the primary complaint.

 

[crossrhodes]

Back to your question

Your fine for Vermont and you can CC it if you wish during your trip. Your not a felon or restricted for firearm possession your OK. Any doubts just call the VSP and ask.(802 334 8881,Derby Brrks) they are the most knowledgeable when it comes to firearms. The only place you may have a little problem is in the Constitution hating Illegal Immigrant loving socialist city of Burlington. they are on a different planet.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Always feel free to ask for a supervisor(be prepared to wait) and that the patrol cars camera system be turned on if it isn't already.

I would have to disagree with you on this point. In most of the stories that we hear about regarding rights violations especially during routine stops that go south, the police camera system usually "malfunctions."

 

[Art Eatman]

Let's don't get too far from the OP's question. This thread has about run its course...

 

[swinokur]

If your weapon is locked in the trunk, it does you no good to allow a search or talk to the police. You are not legally obligated to do either. Politely refuse either

 

[NavyLCDR]

If your weapon is locked in the trunk, it does you no good to allow a search or talk to the police.

I would suggest that statement applies anytime, not just when you have a gun locked in the trunk! Always remember, just because you have nothing to hide does not guarantee that they won't find something!

 

[Tom Gresham]

>>About LE reactions: I have never been educated to any degree on federal gun transportation laws and neither have most cops you'll run into. A polite explanation that you are just passing through and that's it's legal on both ends of your trip as allowed by federal law will at least get the cop to ask which law you're referencing in most cases<<

Actually, doing that will get you handcuffed and arrested, jailed and charged, in NJ and a few other states.

Unfortunately, you have to put aside your idea of what is right, what is fair, and what is legal.

>>A traffic stop is a constant communication thing<<

See my statement above. Thinking that you are in a conversation with the officer is not only naive, but it's dangerous to you.

Your comments:

Hello.

Here they are (license, registration and insurance)

Am I being detained? (To question about guns.)

No, I can't agree to a search of my car. Am I free to go?

----

The police officer is NOT your friend -- or your enemy. He/she wants you to talk. The more you talk, the more likely it is that you say something that endangers you. Shut up.

Print out your script, if necessary, and put it on the sun visor so you can flip it down and refer to it. NOTE: Also, do not remove your seat belt before the officer if at the car. You could be charged for not wearing a seat belt, even if you were.

This isn't anti-cop. It's based on reality. You simply have to protect yourself from the legal system.