Does reduced recoil = less power?

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p89cajun

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I thought we had an ammo forum here but all I saw was the reloading forum so I will post it here. I hear a lot of people talking about reduced recoil buckshot. Do you lose any performance going to the reduced loads? It would seem to me that something would have to give, either recoil or performance. Shooting 3" triple-ought buck out of a pump sucks but I would think if you ever needed it your adrenaline would be so high that you wouldn't feel it.
 
Do you lose any performance going to the reduced loads?
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Yes, laws of physics remain in place. How much difference that a couple hundred fps make in the end is up for debate, however.
 
Every action has == Well you know!

Anyway, yes it does, but not enough to matter.

A dose of 2 3/4" Reduced Recoil 00 Buck will take the starch out of anyone.

And you can get one more round in the magazine!

And shoot faster!

rcmodel
 
You lose some velocity which translates to reduced momentum and energy and also less recoil.

Every caliber has a performance / recoil curve where you begin getting diminishing returns but increased recoil, magnums are at the top of this curve, seeking to squeeze out the last bit of performance with greatly increased recoil. The concept with the reduced recoil loads is you get 80 or 90% of the performance of standard loads with greatly reduced recoil.

The argument for reduced recoil #00 loads is they are good for self defense because they provide adequate velocity with reduced recoil, allowing faster and more accurate follow up shots and smaller people to effectively use them.

Both standard and reduced recoil 2 3/4 #00 loads have been shown to penetrate sufficiently to stop human threats, I use 2 3/4 #00 standard or reduced loads and do not use 3" magnums.

Reduced loads have slightly reduced ranges, but the furthest practical shot within my house is about 20 yards.
 
It doesn't matter until you introduce barriers, and then you can get very different results. For example, reduced recoil slugs give very different penetration results on vehicles compared to full power loads. I hope that will never make a difference to me, but if you were spec'ing ammo for a law enforcement agency you might take that into consideration.

There's a very good booklet on the Federal website with pictures showing penetration of varous Federal shotshell loads in gelatine per the FBI protocol with things such as glass, wallboard and heavy clothing with the gelatin. I'll dig up the link and post it here. The pictures show you how the performance differs. For general personal defense, though, I think I'd not worry. I'd worry a lot more about training, judgment, shot placement and related things.

Edit: Federal link is here.
 
Does reduced recoil = less power?

In a word- yes. Physics will not be denied. In order to reduce recoil, you either have to reduce payload weight, payload velocity, or both. There is no free lunch, every action still has an equal and opposite reaction.

I will no longer use reduced recoil loads in self defense shotguns. I do stick to full velocity 2.75" buck and slugs, and consider 3" loads as too much of a good thing. But reduced recoil loads of either buck or slugs- no thanks. YMMV of course.

My personal promise of confidentiality to the source of several field reports prevents me from giving specifics as to why this is the case. You can take it FWIW, or dismiss what I have said out of hand- it won't bother me either way. My only interest here at THR is giving the best advice I can offer, and that's the best I have on that subject.

lpl/nc
 
Does reduced recoil = less power?

In a word- yes. Physics will not be denied. In order to reduce recoil, you either have to reduce payload weight, payload velocity, or both. There is no free lunch, every action still has an equal and opposite reaction.
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I'm not a physicist, but I believe the influence of choke in a shotgun can have an reduction in recoil without reducing power. I have shot tons of high powered turkey loads in my shotties and have found that modified and full chokes give much less felt recoil than extra full and the new super full turkey chokes with the same shells. Soooooooooo, is it Physics or just in my head.
 
buck460XVR, the reduced-recoil shells having less power is in the case of all other things being equal. It might be more clear if Lee had said "In order to reduce recoil by modifying the shotshell, you either have to reduce payload weight, payload velocity, or both."

You can put a heavier stock on a gun and have a reduction in felt recoil with no change in power, but that is a function of a heavier gun and not a reduced recoil load.
 
OK, then, you hairsplitters- IN ANY GIVEN GUN, in order to reduce recoil, you either have to reduce payload weight, payload velocity, or both.

That suit you better? 8^) Didn't nobody say nothin' in the OP 'bout changing the gun, or the chokes, or anything else- just the load.

I suppose if you are some sort of princess with a pea under her mattresses 8^), then you can tell the difference in recoil given this or that or some other factor. The Technoid says he can tell the difference in a barrel with an extended forcing cone versus one without, recoil wise ( http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnicalTracts/ConesBores.html ), and I am for sure not gonna argue with him, as he has dropped more shotgun shells than I have ever fired. Maybe he can tell the difference- I sure can't.

But then you have to remember, I am a great insensitive Shrek-like lout who is fairly impervious to most shotgun recoil, and not a princess with a pea and a stack of mattresses. Whatta I know?

:D

lpl/nc

Note: For any who are fairy-tale deprived, and unfamiliar with the story of 'The Princess And The Pea,' please see http://childhoodreading.com/Edmund_Dulac_and_Gus/Princess_and_the_Pea.html . Let no one say we are not a fully and broadly cultured group here at THR...
 
Actually, reduced recoil loads can actually provide an increase in performance--specifically, tighter patterns. For example, my 18.5" Benelli Nova shoots tighter patterns with reduced recoil, 2.75'' Federal 9-pellet 00B (with Flitecontrol) than with the exact, same full power load.

Whether or not you like tight patterns, however, is another thread. ;)
 
While I was stationed at Ft. Carson, an MP shot a guy who was climbing over the stockade wire one night.

Winchester 1200 with Winchester GI standard load 2 3/4" 00 Buck.

The doctor who performed the autopsy was a Pistol Team groupie, and he showed up at the shop the next morning with the 00 buck pellets.

Complete through & through from about 15 yards.
The doc found all nine of them in the dead guys undershirt down around his belt line. Apparently the undershirt & army fatigue shirt had stopped them all after they exited the body.

As for the Army Captain doctor, he begin carrying the buckshot around in his pocket and playing with them all the time.
Of course, he quickly gained a new nickname.

Captain Queeg of course! :D

rcmodel
 
Actually, reduced recoil loads can actually provide an increase in performance--specifically, tighter patterns. For example, my 18.5" Benelli Nova shoots tighter patterns with reduced recoil, 2.75'' Federal 9-pellet 00B (with Flitecontrol) than with the exact, same full power load.
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I get better patterns out of reduced recoil buck as well.

It doesn't matter until you introduce barriers, and then you can get very different results. For example, reduced recoil slugs give very different penetration results on vehicles compared to full power loads.
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I've got full-power slugs in the side saddle if I need them. I dont think I've had any reduced recoil slugs...
 
With the exception of #4 buckshot used against small animals I've sworn off buckshot, reduced recoil or otherwise. My own experience with it is that beyond 25 yards it's largely useless. Reduced recoil slugs however definitely have some merit but Brennekes are still the best.

But I'm in a rural environment and distances are longer. YMMV.
 
While I totally agree that the laws of physics won't be denied, I go back to the "power" question. I hear it all the time "Is a 20 gage less powerful than a 12 gage?"

Well yes and no. A projectile of x weight moving at x speed has the same amount of energy or power. The 20 gage will send less of those projectiles downrange, but each of them has the same power.

Same thing here. If the velocity is not reduced, but the payload is less, for example 8 00 buck pellets instead of 9, but at the the same velocity, is it less powerful?

The power of the gross load is less, but each pellet would carry the same power.

Yes?...or am I full of beans?
 
Snarlingiron you make an interesting point, and I would certainly weigh reduced pellet count vs. reduced velocity if I were picking a reduced power SD load.

But for an apples to apples comparison of shot shells one needs to consider the size, weight, velocity and quantity of projectiles. I should add that how they feed and pattern in your shotgun is far more important, but a little harder to discover.
 
One problem with 20 gauge loads, though, just from a point of view of physics, is that the "power" (energy - which may or may not correlate to "stopping power," whatever that is, but those are a different thread or two!) depends on weight, and you can't necessarily get an individual projectile equivalent to a 12 ga in a 20 gauge - two examples: there are no 00 buck loads in 20 gauge (if that's what you want to compare), and the weight of a 20 ga slug is obviously less than a 12 ga slug.

Whether or not that proves much, other than physics on paper, is another matter, though. I ain't volunteerin' to be hit by either.
 
You cannot beat the laws of physics. KE forward has to equal KE backward.

Having said that, you can do a lot to reduce felt recoil while using the same loads. A recoil pad does just that, by slowing down the impulse of the recoiling gun, spreading it out so it becomes more of a push and less of a belt.

A properly-fitted stock will help a lot, too. (And vice versa - I remember an old Russian single-shot 12 gauge with a stock apparently whittled out of driftwood by somebody who had never actually seen a shotgun before, but was willing to try. That thing practically had my shoulder blades shaking hands.)

There are however ways to actually reduce recoil while using the same loads. Turning some of the gas around so that it moves at least partially backwards will do it - the effectiveness of porting shotguns has been hotly debated and of course the Cutts Compensator had a claimed recoil reduction of 40 percent.
 
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the SUREST way to reduce recoil is simply use a heavier gun with a lighter load...basic physics....

if you are protecting your home at bedroom distances, your basic 00 load from a heavy gun will do fine and allow you a chance for a second shot if need be....too many people hung up on theorizing about some meth-head with armor on breaking in their door and they gotta have some damn armor-piercing round to take him down at either 2 feet or 2000 yards..........

any good shotgun or pistol, providing you can do YOUR part....or even more importantly, ANY member of your family can pull that trigger accurately, at household distances is going to do just fine......if not, we'd all be carrying 454 Casull's and shooting 600 N.E.'s............
 
I prefer reduced recoil slugs and buck, as I can stay on target with greater control and deliver double taps quicker. I also have shot the slugs out to 125 yards accurately from my Benelli M1Super90. For me, I will not use standard loads. If I want more penitration/power, then I will break out the L1A1 with the 30 round mags. But, I also carry either a Bersa Thunder .380 or a Glock 26 as a concealed carry pistol. Some would say that those are underpowered. They work fine for me though.
 
You cannot beat the laws of physics. KE forward has to equal KE backward.
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No. Kinetic energy is a scalar quantity and it is not conserved (total energy is conserved, but that doesn't matter here). The KE of the projectile(s) will be much greater than the KE imparted to the gun via recoil.

Momentum is a conserved vector quantity, so the momentum in recoil will equal the momentum of the gas and projectile(s) exiting the muzzle.
 
Ergosphere - You are absolutely right and thanks for catching me. I will be staying behind and cleaning the blackboards after school. Again.
 
I'm still trying to figure out what he said!

Allst I knows is that tha reeduced stuff hurt my orm less!:D:D:neener:
 
You may not have to give up velocity, but recoil is reduced by lowering the number of pellets. I think one of the "reduced recoil" 00 Buck loads contains only 8 pellets. The regular short Magnums hold 12 while the 3" hold 15.
The only way to reduce recoil is to:

Reduce the powder charge (velocity)
or
Reduce the payload
or
Some combination of the two.

There is no such thing as a free lunch in ballistics.
 
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