Does the 2nd Am restrict all govts? Or just Fed govt?

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In Light of the tenth that not only reserves to the states, but also "to the people", and the second that preserves the "right of the people" , I say that the "right to bear arms" is a personal right that is "reserved.. to the people" and is not "reserved to the states"
Absolutely, Coat4gun. The Founders trusted the people to guard their own liberties via their State governments, which were directly under their control. What they didn't trust was the distant central government they had created, less subject as it was to being checked in its powers by the ordinary citizen, which is why they chained it down in the shackles of the Bill of Rights and a Constitution of few and delegated powers.
 
No governing authority operating within the bounds of the US may infringe on an individuals right to keep and bear arms.

I suppose you could personally interpret it that way, but nobody else ever has. Moreover, that's not how it worked historically. You must ignore the past 200 years of history, jurisprudence and legislation. Just accept that unless the courts decide that the 2nd was included in the 14th, it's not going to restrict state actions.
 
<Personal stuff removed by Art>

Try reading some of the writings of the Founders: Buy a book called the Anti-Federalists, and read it along side the Federalist Papers. That gives you the whole scope of their concerns about the Constitution. You will see that within that entire scope, neither side would be willing to trust the then newly established (actually, soon to be established) central government with authority over the States regarding how rightful liberties are preserved. Both sides in the debate mistrusted the central government, and would never agree to empower it to oversee the States regarding their correct adherence to our rightful liberties (They would sooner be ruled by the King of England), but one side was convinced that there were sufficient safeguards in place to allow it to come into being without undue risk of losing State sovereignty over these questions. The other side felt that, even with these safeguards, it was still too risky.

Please buy those two books and read them. You will really have your eyes opened regarding what the Constitution is really about. MUCH better than getting your knowledge of the purpose of the Constitution from Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Believe me.
 
The Real Hawkeye said:
Yes, where this is stated in the Constitution. It is not a plenary power to enforce Federal will on the States, however. Where a power is not delegated by the States to the US Government, it is retained by the States respectively, and by the people. Please show me where in the US Constitution the power to oversee the States with regard to the Right to Keep and Bear arms is located? I would very much like to read that provision. It would be nice if the Second Amendment said "... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and Congress shall be authorized to prevent the States from doing so," but unfortunately, it doesn't say that. No delegation of power means the Federal Government doesn't have it. States, however, are obliged to respect that right, but they are obliged to their citizens, not to the Federal Government.

No power is delegated or granted by the states to the federal government. The powers granted to the Union are from the people.

If, as you say, the states are obliged to respect the right of the people to keep and bear arms, why then is the Supreme Court in charge of trying any case brought to them on this issue? If my state restricts my right to keep and bear arms, and I charge my state with the crime of infringing my right to keep and bear arms, I must bring that case directly to the Supreme Court, as per Article III, Section 2, Clause (2). That puts any infringement of a right by a state of one of it's citizens under the direct scrutiny of the Court(the Supreme Court - the top court in the land - part of the "central government").

The Fourteenth Amendment, Section 5, extends power to Congress to create law to enforce the provisions in the Fourteenth Amendment. One of those provisions is, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United Stetes;...". "Privilege" is a synonym of "right". The Second Amendment makes the right of the people to keep and bear arms uninfringable. That means the Second Amendment makes the right of the people immune from infringement. "Right" is a synonym of "immunity". "Freedom" is a synonym of "Immunity". "Liberty", "license", and "privilege" are all synonyms for "immunity". The power in the Fourteenth Amendment granted to Congress to create law to enforce all these rights covers a whole lot of ground - including the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. The power is there. All Congress needs to do to force the states to remove the infringements upon our RKBA is to exercise that power.

The Supreme Court also has power to declare law infringing our RKBA unconstitutional. It damn near did in U.S. v. Miller. If one of the defendants hadn't been "conveniently" murdered, and had the other not copped a plea, The NFA, which had already been declared unconstitutional in every lower court up to the Supreme Court might have been declared unconstitutional in the Supreme Court as well.

Woody

You can live free holding the stock and possibly never have to pull the trigger, or you can try to live free at the muzzle. I prefer to hold the stock and live free. Those at the muzzle never seem to fare quite so well. B.E.Wood
 
If, as you say, the states are obliged to respect the right of the people to keep and bear arms, why then is the Supreme Court in charge of trying any case brought to them on this issue?
It's not. They may grant cert or not grant cert, but for them to grant cert I think the matter has to rise under the Constitution, i.e., the Second Amendment, rather than your own State's Constitution. They are not bound, in any case, to hear it.
If my state restricts my right to keep and bear arms, and I charge my state with the crime of infringing my right to keep and bear arms, I must bring that case directly to the Supreme Court, as per Article III, Section 2, Clause (2).
Only for cases arising under the US Constitution. If you claim that the Second Amendment protects your right as against your State, the SCOTUS may or may not even hear it. They may decide that the lower court was correct. They are not bound to hear it at all. If they did hear it, they could well decide it belongs in your State courts, because your State Constitution has the equivalent protection. They may decide that the Second Amendment doesn't restrain your State government at all, but only the Federal Government.
That puts any infringement of a right by a state of one of it's citizens under the direct scrutiny of the Court (the Supreme Court - the top court in the land - part of the "central government").
No, they are not obliged to hear it at all. They are at liberty to pick and choose which appellate cases they take. Whether they take it or not, however, doesn't have any bearing on the ultimate issue of whether or not your State is obliged to recognize your rightful liberty to keep and bear arms. That's sort of between you and the State. The Federal Government was not devised to be your fairy godmother or guardian angel. Far from it. It was seen by the Founders as the number one potential threat to our liberties, not a safeguard for them.
 
Blatantly denying the intent of the Founding Fathers by trying to infer they didn't mean what they actually wrote, or taking it out of context to make it mean something else, makes me wonder.

"The capital and leading object of the Constitution was to leave with the States all authorities which respected their own citizens only and to transfer to the United States those which respected citizens of foreign or other States" --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823
 
In Light of the tenth that not only reserves to the states, but also "to the people", and the second that preserves the "right of the people" , I say that the "right to bear arms" is a personal right that is "reserved.. to the people" and is not "reserved to the states".

I do not believe that the Tenth Amendment reserves personal rights to all US Citizens. I believe it declares that undelegated powers are reserved to each State, with "State" meaning either "the Virginia State Legislature" or "Virginians". Powers within Virginia are reserved to Virginians, or to our Virginia Government ... undelegated powers within Virginia are not reserved to every person in the whole US!

Here are the requests for the Tenth Amendment. I do not believe that any of them regard nationwide personal rights.

**********************************************

MA - "First, That it be explicitly declared that all Powers not expressly delegated by the aforesaid Constitution are reserved to the several States to be by them exercised."

NC - "I. THAT each state in the union shall, respectively, retain every power, jurisdiction and right, which is not by this constitution delegated to the Congress of the United States, or to the departments of the Federal Government."

NH - "First That it be Explicitly declared that all Powers not expressly & particularly Delegated by the aforesaid Constitution are reserved to the several States to be, by them Exercised."

NY - "that every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the departments of the Government thereof, remains to the People of the several States, or to their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same"

RI - "That the rights of the States respectively, to nominate and appoint all State Officers, and every other power, jurisdiction and right, which is not by the said constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States or to the departments of government thereof, remain to the people of the several states, or their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same"

SC - "This Convention doth also declare that no Section or paragraph of the said Constitution warrants a Construction that the states do not retain every power not expressly relinquished by them and vested in the General Government of the Union."

VA - "First, That each State in the Union shall respectively retain every power, jurisdiction and right which is not by this Constitution delegated to the Congress of the United States or to the departments of the Federal Government."

**********************************************


No governing authority operating within the bounds of the US may infringe on an individuals right to keep and bear arms.

That would mean that the US Government has jurisdiction over our basic individual rights. I do not believe that a limited federal government can have such jurisdiction. I believe what is being described (again and again) is a wholly national US government.
 
woody, I am still waiting for your answers to previous questions.

#79
Why would a person as smart as Madison propose a Bill of Rights that (under your interpretation) contained the same prohibitions twice in separate sections of a rather small document?

#80
IF the Bill of Rights was intended to apply to both the national government and the states, why did everyone (the people, legislators, and judges) immediately forget that fact? From its ratification, the courts consistently treated the Bill of Rights as only applicable to the national government. It was not until parts of the Bill of Rights were 'incorporated' through the 14th Amendment that those rights were enforced against the states. Don't you think someone might have noticed that little difference and complained?

#80
IF the Bill of Rights was intended to apply to both the national government and the states, why was the 14th Amendment adopted? Would it not have been much easier for Congress to simply pass legislation to enforce the (under your view Constitutional) rights of former slaves? So why go to the trouble of adopting a new Constitutional Amendment if those rights were already protected under the Bill of Rights?
 
Hawkeye

I've got both books(Signet Classics) and read them.

Regardless of all the arguments they put forward, pro and con, we here and now must concentrate on what they settled upon. Those are the issues facing us today. That is the path this country was set upon, it works, and the destruction exacted upon the system, and the more of the same in store for it, are a blatant - if not a blunder borne of ignorance and stupidity - attempt to tear it all down.

Be it deliberate or blunder, the fate of this country rests upon our ability to keep it on the straight and narrow. That means throwing out the bums in Congress, the White House, and on the Court, who won't protect, defend, and abide the Constitution. The same goes for the kindred bums inhabiting the halls of government in each of the states. All have weakened this country, and we've no one to blame beyond ourselves for believing their bilge and voting for them.

Remember that at each and every election.

"The right of a citizen to bear arms, in lawful defense of himself or the State, is absolute. He does not derive it from the State government. It is one of the 'High Powers' delegated directly to the citizen by the United States Constitution, Amendment II....A law cannot be passed to infringe upon it or impair it, because it is above the law, and independent of the law-making power." - Texas Supreme Court Decision, Cockrum vs State of Texas, ---- 1859

Seems some of the states did consider the 2A binding upon the states. Some still do.
 
I believe, with you, that the right enshrined in the Second Amendment, that of the people to keep and bear arms, is ABOVE any law, whether State or Federal. That said, the question remains as to who the Founders entrusted with the power to defend the rightful liberty stemming from said right, i.e., the liberty, under law, to actually keep and bear arms without fear of legal penalty. I say they certainly did not entrust this to the Federal Government, which they feared as a potential abuser of all our liberties, rather than trusted as their safeguard. No, instead they trusted the people of the several States to preserve this liberty within their own States via their own State governments, being at the same time assured that the soon to be established central government would forever be denied power to destroy this liberty.
 
If, as you say, the states are obliged to respect the right of the people to keep and bear arms, why then is the Supreme Court in charge of trying any case brought to them on this issue?
The SCOTUS has maintained for centuries that their only jurisdiction over the RKBA is as it relates to militia. I don't know where you get the idea that the SCOTUS is in charge of all RKBA infringement cases.


If my state restricts my right to keep and bear arms, and I charge my state with the crime of infringing my right to keep and bear arms, I must bring that case directly to the Supreme Court, as per Article III, Section 2, Clause (2).
You seem to be saying that the SCOTUS has original jurisdiction over any case involving a State violating someone's "rights". Article III says that the judicial power shall extend to controversies between States, between a State and Citizens of another state, between Citizens of different States ... it does not say that the SCOTUS shall have jurisdiction over matters between a Citizen and his State.
 
gc70 said:
woody, I am still waiting for your answers to previous questions.

#79
Why would a person as smart as Madison propose a Bill of Rights that (under your interpretation) contained the same prohibitions twice in separate sections of a rather small document? It doesn't matter what he proposed, what matters is what was adopted.

#80
IF the Bill of Rights was intended to apply to both the national government and the states, why did everyone (the people, legislators, and judges) immediately forget that fact? From its ratification, the courts consistently treated the Bill of Rights as only applicable to the national government. It was not until parts of the Bill of Rights were 'incorporated' through the 14th Amendment that those rights were enforced against the states. Don't you think someone might have noticed that little difference and complained?They were wrong and still are. I'm complaining. I'm not the first to complain, either. And, your statement that the courts consistantly treated the Bill of Rights as only applicable to the Union is wrong. To wit: "The right of a citizen to bear arms, in lawful defense of himself or the State, is absolute. He does not derive it from the State government. It is one of the 'High Powers' delegated directly to the citizen by the United States Constitution, Amendment II....A law cannot be passed to infringe upon it or impair it, because it is above the law, and independent of the law-making power." - Texas Supreme Court Decision, Cockrum vs State of Texas, ---- 1859 . This was BEFORE the 14th Amendment, too.

#80
IF the Bill of Rights was intended to apply to both the national government and the states, why was the 14th Amendment adopted? Would it not have been much easier for Congress to simply pass legislation to enforce the (under your view Constitutional) rights of former slaves? So why go to the trouble of adopting a new Constitutional Amendment if those rights were already protected under the Bill of Rights? The 14th Amendment, Section 5, added teeth to the protection of our rights. Before that, I can only guess. They were wrong, though.

Woody

Good Night, all. Its cuddle and movie time!


Oh, and Hugh, read Article III, Section 2, Clause(2), and there you will find the answer to your question.
 
I got it now. I reread my copy of the "living" constitution, and the second amendment reads,,,

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except by the states, the counties, the cities, the towns, the preciincts, or the neighborhood watch groups."
 
by woodcdi:

They were wrong and still are.

They were wrong, though.

So, for over 200 years, judges, legislators, and legal scholars were simply wrong about the Bill of Rights not extending to the states... because woody says so. With all due respect, I know who I'm betting on in this round of 'woody versus the world.'

The Constitution of the United States of America
[This document is sponsored by the United States Senate on the United States Government Printing Office web site.]

Bill of Rights and the States.--One of the amendments which the Senate refused to accept--declared by Madison to be ``the most valuable of the whole list''--read: ``The equal rights of conscience, the freedom of speech or of the press, and the right of trial by jury in criminal cases shall not be infringed by any State.'' In spite of this rejection, the contention that the Bill of Rights--or at least the first eight--was applicable to the States was repeatedly pressed upon the Supreme Court. By a long series of decisions, beginning with the opinion of Chief Justice Marshall in Barron v. Baltimore, the argument was consistently rejected. Nevertheless, the enduring vitality of natural law concepts encouraged renewed appeals for judicial protection through application of the Bill of Rights.
 
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To wit: "The right of a citizen to bear arms, in lawful defense of himself or the State, is absolute. He does not derive it from the State government. It is one of the 'High Powers' delegated directly to the citizen by the United States Constitution, Amendment II....A law cannot be passed to infringe upon it or impair it, because it is above the law, and independent of the law-making power." - Texas Supreme Court Decision, Cockrum vs State of Texas, ---- 1859 . This was BEFORE the 14th Amendment, too.

This case is getting cited all over the web, with the same quotation. It must have come from the same source. Here is the actual opinion:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/cockrum_v_state.txt

And whoever selectively quoted the case, left out this rather important section:

The clause in the constitution of the United States, that
it is said to be in violation of, is the 2d article of the
amendments: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the
security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear
arms shall not be infringed." O. & W. Dig. 7. The clause in the
constitution of this state, which it is said to violate, is the
13th section of the bill of rights: "Every citizen shall have the
right to keep and bear arms, in the lawful defense of himself
or the state." O. & W. Dig. 14
.

In other words, the Texas Constitution had (and I believe still has) its own provision regarding the RKBA.

The court goes on to explain:

The object of the clause first cited [IN OTHER WORDS, THE SECOND AMENDMENT], has reference to the
perpetuation of free government, and is based on the idea, that
the people cannot be effectually oppressed and enslaved, who are
not first disarmed. The clause cited in our bill of rights [AS IN, THE TEXAS BILL OF RIGHTS], has the same broad object in relation to the government, and in addition
thereto, secures a personal right to the citizen. The right of a
citizen to bear arms, in the lawful defense of himself or the
state, is absolute. He does not derive it from the state
government, but directly from the sovereign convention of the
people that framed the state government. It is one of the "high
powers" delegated directly to the citizen, and "is excepted out of
the general powers of government." A law cannot be passed to
infringe upon or impair it, because it is above the law, and
independent of the law-making power.

Whoever first did the very selective quoting from that case was playing fast and loose.

The right to carry a bowie-knife for lawful defense is
secured, and must be admitted. It is an exceeding destructive
weapon. It is difficult to defend against it, by any degree of
bravery, or any amount of skill. The gun or pistol may miss its
aim, and when discharged, its dangerous character is lost, or
diminished at least. The sword may be parried. With these weapons
men fight for the sake of the combat, to satisfy the laws of honor,
not necessarily with the intention to kill, or with a certainty of
killing, when the intention exists. The bowie-knife differs from
these in its device and design; it is the instrument of almost
certain death. He who carries such a weapon, for lawful defense,
as he may, makes himself more dangerous to the rights of others,
considering the frailties of human nature, than if he carried a
less dangerous weapon. Now, is the legislature powerless to protect
the rights of others thus the more endangered, by superinducing
caution against yielding to such frailties? May the state not say,
through its law, to the citizen, "this right which you exercise, is
very liable to be dangerous to the rights of others, you must
school your mind to forbear the abuse of your right, by yielding to
sudden passion; to secure this necessary schooling of your mind, an
increased penalty must be affixed to the abuse of this right, so
dangerous to others." This would be in accordance with the well
established maxim of law, that "you must so use your own as not to
injure others." A law inflicting such increased penalty, would
only be a sanction of this rule.

Such admonitory regulation of the abuse must not be carried
too far. It certainly has a limit. For if the legislature were to
affix a punishment to the abuse of this right, so great, as in its
nature, it must deter the citizen from its lawful exercise, that
would be tantamount to a prohibition of the right. In the absence
of authority bearing on the question, we are not now prepared to
say, that this law is one of such a nature, or that such has been,
or will be, its practical effect. This is a question of power, not
of policy. The legislature has the power to put all cases of
manslaughter, committed with deadly weapons, on the same footing
with murder, in the punishment, leaving it to the jury to affix the
degree of punishment, according to their opinion of the degree of
its atrocity. If so, it is difficult to see the reason why they
may not do this, in the case of a bowie-knife, the most deadly of
all weapons in common use.

Another objection taken to the action of the court, is, that
the defendant was not put upon his election, as to whether he would
be tried under the code, or under the amendments. This is necessary
only when "the punishment of the offense is ameliorated" by the
last law. The maximum of punishment, both of murder and of
manslaughter, is the same under both laws, and the minimum in both
is increased by the last law. The main difference, otherwise, is
the establishment of degrees in murder, and its punishment
accordingly. This limits the discretion of the jury, and would
more often be prejudicial to a defendant than beneficial. We
cannot say, then, that the punishment has been "ameliorated," in
reference to the interests of a defendant by the last law.

So while they discuss the Federal Second Amendment in passing, their focus remains on the TEXAS CONSTITUTION. This is how the system has always worked, and is a part of Federalism.
 
Yes, Thanks, Cos!

It is contended, that this article of the code, is in violation of the constitution of the United States, and of this state. The clause in the constitution of the United States, that it is said to be in violation of, is the 2d article of the amendments: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." O. & W. Dig. 7. The clause in the constitution of this state, which it is said to violate, is the 13th section of the bill of rights: "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms, in the lawful defense of himself or the state." O. & W. Dig. 14.

The object of the clause first cited, has reference to the perpetuation of free government, and is based on the idea, that the people cannot be effectually oppressed and enslaved, who are not first disarmed. The clause cited in our bill of rights, has the same broad object in relation to the government, and in addition thereto, secures a personal right to the citizen. The right of a citizen to bear arms, in the lawful defense of himself or the state, is absolute. He does not derive it from the state government, but directly from the sovereign convention of the people that framed the state government. It is one of the "high powers" delegated directly to the citizen, and "is excepted out of the general powers of government." A law cannot be passed (p.402)to infringe upon or impair it, because it is above the law, and independent of the law-making power.

Regardless of the abridgment for the "quote", there is nothing nonfactual about it. That said, the original passages from Cockrum v. State of Texas are actually better. It makes the statement that the clause in the Texas bill of rights ..."has the same broad object in relation to the government, and in addition thereto, secures a personal right to the citizen."

The subject case was brought to the court on the premise that the Second Amendment to the Constitution was violated, as well as the state constitution, by the code in question. In reference to the excerpt italicized in the previous sentence, with further emphases in bold, the Texas Supreme Court gave deference to the Second Amendment - and rightly so with and in addition thereto - it being the Supreme Law of the Land. The Second Amendment is not mentioned merely in passing as Cos would have you believe. The last three paragraphs Cos quoted, after the first sentence statement that carrying a Bowie knife for self defense is a right, go to use of a weapon and how misuse can surely be severely punished.

So, yes, I must also give thanks to Cos, though. From now on, I'll quote both paragraphs.

"Thanks, Cos!"

Woody

"It is contended, that this article of the code, is in violation of the constitution of the United States, and of this state. The clause in the constitution of the United States, that it is said to be in violation of, is the 2d article of the amendments: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." O. & W. Dig. 7. The clause in the constitution of this state, which it is said to violate, is the 13th section of the bill of rights: "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms, in the lawful defense of himself or the state." O. & W. Dig. 14.


The object of the clause first cited, has reference to the perpetuation of free government, and is based on the idea, that the people cannot be effectually oppressed and enslaved, who are not first disarmed. The clause cited in our bill of rights, has the same broad object in relation to the government, and in addition thereto, secures a personal right to the citizen. The right of a citizen to bear arms, in the lawful defense of himself or the state, is absolute. He does not derive it from the state government, but directly from the sovereign convention of the people that framed the state government. It is one of the "high powers" delegated directly to the citizen, and "is excepted out of the general powers of government." A law cannot be passed (p.402)to infringe upon or impair it, because it is above the law, and independent of the law-making power."
- Texas Supreme Court Decision, Cockrum vs State of Texas, ---- 1859

Seems some of the states did consider the 2A binding upon the states. Some still do.
 
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Article III, Section 2

Let's take a look at This Article III, Section 2 ... and let's consider two different views and see if either of them fits better ... in one view, the intent is for the SCOTUS to have original jurisdiction over cases where a Citizen thinks his State is violating his "rights" ... and in the other view, the intent is for the US judicial power to extend to foreign and interstate affairs, yet not extend into intrastate affairs between a Citizen and his State:


"The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state [see 11th Amendment];--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.

In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make."


I think that one clause defines the US jurisdiction, and the next clause defines which part of that jurisdiction is original and which is appellate. I think it says that, in the before mentioned cases where a State is a party, the US has original jurisdiction. I don't think it means that the US has original jurisdiction over all cases involving States, such as cases between a Citizen and his State, when the clause defining the jurisdiction doesn't say that.

It appears to me that Article III, Section 2 does not delegate original nor even appellate jurisdiction over affairs between a Citizen and his State.
 
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the Texas Supreme Court gave deference to the Second Amendment - and rightly so with and in addition thereto - it being the Supreme Law of the Land.

You're still way off. Where does the court say it's following the Second as the Supreme Law of the Land? It's interpreting the TEXAS CONSTITUTION and enforcing it.

The object of the clause first cited, has reference to the perpetuation of free government, and is based on the idea, that the people cannot be effectually oppressed and enslaved, who are not first disarmed.

The first clause cited is the Second Amendment. And this is the extent of their discussion of the Second.

The clause cited in our bill of rights,

This is the Texas constitutional provision. This is the provision which informs the holding. That's why the subsequent discussion speaks of the State constitional convention, not the federal one. Do you understand the difference between holding and dicta?

It's a fine opinion, and an important one for Texas jurisprudence. But the Texas Supreme Court interprets Texas law and the Texas Constitution. It does not create binding precedent as to the Federal Constitution and never has. The court's reference to the Second and comparison with the Texas guarantee is interesting, but of limited significance. It most certainly does not mean that the Second applied to the states of its own power prior to the adoption of the 14th. In order to prove your point, you would need to find Supreme Court cases overturning a state's law on the grounds that it violated the Second Amendment. That has simply never happened. I hope it does one day.
 
hugh damright said:
I think that one clause defines the US jurisdiction, and the next clause defines which part of that jurisdiction is original and which is appellate. I think it says that, in the before mentioned cases where a State is a party, the US has original jurisdiction. I don't think it means that the US has original jurisdiction over all cases involving States, such as cases between a Citizen and his State, when the clause defining the jurisdiction doesn't say that.
The following from Article III, Section 2, encompasses a violation by a state of a provision in the Constitution, and is borne out in Federals 80:

"The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,..."
Bringing a case of a state violating one of its citizen's Right to Keep and Bear Arms would fall into this first class of causes, the violation of law being a violation of a constitutional provision, a prohibition on infringing the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in the second added article to the Constitution. It would be a case of law arising under the Constitution.

Pertinent excerpts from Federalist 80:

It seems scarcely to admit of controversy, that the judicary authority of the Union ought to extend to these several descriptions of cases: 1st, to all those which arise out of the laws of the United States, passed in pursuance of their just and constitutional powers of legislation; 2d, to all those which concern the execution of the provisions expressly contained in the articles of Union; 3d, to all those in which the United States are a party; 4th, to all those which involve the PEACE of the CONFEDERACY, whether they relate to the intercourse between the United States and foreign nations, or to that between the States themselves; 5th, to all those which originate on the high seas, and are of admiralty or maritime jurisdiction; and, lastly, to all those in which the State tribunals cannot be supposed to be impartial and unbiased.

The first point depends upon this obvious consideration, that there ought always to be a constitutional method of giving efficacy to constitutional provisions. What, for instance, would avail restrictions on the authority of the State legislatures, without some constitutional mode of enforcing the observance of them? The States, by the plan of the convention, are prohibited from doing a variety of things, some of which are incompatible with the interests of the Union, and others with the principles of good government. The imposition of duties on imported articles, and the emission of paper money, are specimens of each kind. No man of sense will believe, that such prohibitions would be scrupulously regarded, without some effectual power in the government to restrain or correct the infractions of them. This power must either be a direct negative on the State laws, or an authority in the federal courts to overrule such as might be in manifest contravention of the articles of Union. There is no third course that I can imagine. The latter appears to have been thought by the convention preferable to the former, and, I presume, will be most agreeable to the States.

(Skipping nine paragraphs)

First. To all cases in law and equity, ARISING UNDER THE CONSTITUTION and THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES. This corresponds with the two first classes of causes, which have been enumerated, as proper for the jurisdiction of the United States. It has been asked, what is meant by "cases arising under the Constitution," in contradiction from those "arising under the laws of the United States"? The difference has been already explained. All the restrictions upon the authority of the State legislatures furnish examples of it. They are not, for instance, to emit paper money; but the interdiction results from the Constitution, and will have no connection with any law of the United States. Should paper money, notwithstanding, be emited, the controversies concerning it would be cases arising under the Constitution and not the laws of the United States, in the ordinary signification of the terms. This may serve as a sample of the whole.

...

Cosmoline said:
You're still way off. Where does the court say it's following the Second as the Supreme Law of the Land? It's interpreting the TEXAS CONSTITUTION and enforcing it.

The Texas Supreme Court didn't come right out and say it was following the Supreme Law of the Land, they simply ruled accordingly, and included it in its decision. They said, "It is contended, that this article of the code, is in violation of the constitution of the United States, and of this state. The clause in the constitution of the United States, that it is said to be in violation of, is the 2d article of the amendments: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."" The case was tried as a violation of the Second Amendment as well as a violation of the 13th section of the bill of rights of the Texas Constitution. It's undeniable. It's written right in the decision.

More from Cockrum v. State of Texas:

It has been held, that even a law prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons, is unconstitutional. Bliss v. Commonwealth, 2 Litt. 90. The court there say, that whatever restrains the full and complete exercise of the right, is in violation of the constitution. Such laws have, however, been sustained in other states. See State v. Reid, 1 Ala. 612; State v. Mitchell, 3 Blackf. 229; Nunn v. State, 1 Kelly, 243. The attention of the court is particularly called to the case of Nunn v. State, as bearing more directly on the proposition above asserted. The legislature of Georgia had passed a law, prohibiting the keeping, sale, or carrying of certain kind of knives or pistols. Judge Lumpkin held it to be unconstitutional, in so far as it prohibited the carrying of a pistol (or other weapon) openly. It is held, also, in that case, that the provision in the constitution of the United States, is applicable to state legislation.

Seems the appellant's attorney leaned fairly heavily upon the "provision in the constitution of the United States"(The Second Amendment). The decision by the Texas Supreme Court recognized it as pertinent as well. It is more than dicta, and as much a "holding" as the 13th section of the Texas Constitution. It was brought up, and it was relied upon.

Cosmoline said:
It's a fine opinion, and an important one for Texas jurisprudence. But the Texas Supreme Court interprets Texas law and the Texas Constitution. It does not create binding precedent as to the Federal Constitution and never has. The court's reference to the Second and comparison with the Texas guarantee is interesting, but of limited significance. It most certainly does not mean that the Second applied to the states of its own power prior to the adoption of the 14th. In order to prove your point, you would need to find Supreme Court cases overturning a state's law on the grounds that it violated the Second Amendment. That has simply never happened. I hope it does one day.

What is important is that Texas recognizes that the Second Amendment applies to Texas, and that is the only claim I've made vis-a-vis this case. It isn't the only state, either.


Woody


Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood
 
"The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,..."
Bringing a case of a state violating one of its citizen's Right to Keep and Bear Arms would fall into this first class of causes, the violation of law being a violation of a constitutional provision, a prohibition on infringing the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in the second added article to the Constitution. It would be a case of law arising under the Constitution.
A state's violation of one of its citizen's right to keep and bear arms would not be a federal matter because the Second Amendment does not apply to the states.
 
gc70 said:
me said:
Article III said:
"The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,..."

Bringing a case of a state violating one of its citizen's Right to Keep and Bear Arms would fall into this first class of causes, the violation of law being a violation of a constitutional provision, a prohibition on infringing the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in the second added article to the Constitution. It would be a case of law arising under the Constitution.

A state's violation of one of its citizen's right to keep and bear arms would not be a federal matter because the Second Amendment does not apply to the states.

I think I've proven my point well enough. Time to move on.

Woody

How many times must people get bit in the (insert appropriate anatomical region) before they figure out that infringing upon rights sets the stage for the detrimental acts those rights were there to deter? B.E.Wood
 
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