Does the Army issue knives to soldiers?

Status
Not open for further replies.

leadcounsel

member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
5,365
Location
Tacoma, WA
I read that the USCG issues knives.

Do any of the other branches, mainly the Army, issue knives to soldiers.

If they do or even if they don't, do these branches have restrictions on what types of knife a soldier can carry and the method of carry?

If I were to get a reasonably priced knife for a soldier, who may see combat, what would YOU recommend in the less than $75 range?

I'm thinking the S&W http://www.knivesplus.com/smith-and...-sw-cksur4.html

Or Gerber: - I like this one for the Molle sheath attachments, spear conversion ability, and hard pommel:
http://www.knivesplus.com/gerber-knife-lmf-gb-1463.html

Or the Becker:
http://www.knivesplus.com/CM-BK7-BK...lity-Knife.html

Or KaBar

I have the KaBar and think it's a great knife and the kydex sheath is nice. I have the SW knife and like the knive but think the sheath velco strap is worthless. I have no experience with the Becker, and I've never really put any of my knives to the test.
Any other thoughts in the less than $75 range?

What would be the ideal and the minimum blade length for a soldier?
 
It has been 34 years since I got out of the Army but the only knives we were issued were our bayonets.
Mechanics were issued an electricians pocket knife in their tool kit.
They didn't much care what if any extra knives we carried. Some carried K-bars, some had Gerber daggers, some had switch blades, some even carried straight razors. And then some of us just sharpened the edges of our entrenching tools:evil: .
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

Seems like the Ranger and Tops knives are high quality, but have the same hardness and are more expensive, probably due to less quantity demand than the big knive companies.
 
Recently back from Iraq w/ the Army, so for what's it's worth-

They didn't issue any knives to us. However, our company was able to purchase knives with unit funds.

I took my KA-BAR, and used it primarily to pound things (this is one of the wonderful things about them, I've found). We bought a bunch of Benchmade spring-assisted pocket folders, which everyone loved, but were of limited use, really.

The handiest knife I had (and I had two of them), was a Gerber folding lockblade, with probably a [wanders off to find knife and look at it] 4-inch, non-serrated blade. If you buy a pouch for a single M9 magazine, the Gerber fits right in it and you can hang it on your load-bearing equipment. I found it held its edge wonderfully and, since it was on my armor instead of in a pocket, was very very handy. ABout $30, so a bargain, and the perfect tool for a lot of jobs.
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

Seems like the Ranger and Tops knives are high quality, but have the same hardness and are more expensive, probably due to less quantity demand than the big knive companies.

Uh, no.

Knives like those made by TOPS and Ranger cost more due to two factors--American manufacture and attention to detail, things like better heat treat, thicker stock, and micarta handles. The owner of Ranger is in Iraq last I heard.

Your original posting shows a Chinese made S&W made of 440C stainless. Decent steel if the Chicoms did it right, bad mojo overall. Taylor is known for junk. Stainless "survival/combat" knives are not very impressive for strength compared to carbon steel ones.

Then there is the Gerber LMFII. Decent looking design, though there is too much of the blade devoted to serrations, which, IMO are unnecessary for anyone with decent knife sharpening skills. Other problem is the unimpressive 12C27 stainless steel used.

At last with the Becker you are on the right track. Only problem there might be availability as Camillus, the actual manufacturer, is in danger of closing in the midst of a union flap.

Another contender that is only a little more than $75.00 is the Ontario RAT series, particularly the RAT-5, which is a good carbon steel knife that splits the difference between utility and combat by being an easier everyday carry.

rat5-new.jpg


http://ontariorat.com

Another contender would be the Benchmade CSK ~$90.00 at knifecenter.com. It is like a product improved Ka-Bar in D2 steel, which is really decent in this price bracket

156csk.jpg

My thought on military knives:

Most useful one is a good multitool. Not glamorous, but handy.

Anything over 6" is going to be clumsy in and out of vehicles and the bigger the blade the bigger the jokes at your expense because chances are you'll never use the knife on the enemy or in a survival situation. Mid-sized knives cut the difference between toughness over folders and Rambo-itis overkill.

Don't get seduced by a knife with a "decent" sheath. Your purchase money should be concentrated in the quality of the blade. The aftermarket offers custom sheaths for anything far better than any factory offering.
 
Boats:

That was an excellent post and exactly the information I'm striving for.

Good point about the 7" blade maybe as too big for practical use.

Questions:

You recommended the RAT7, but what about the other Ontario knives, even the less expensive ones? http://www.knivesplus.com/ONTARIO-KNIVES.HTML

How important is a hard pommel on a knife (for striking, hammering, etc.), vs one that isn't designed for that?

D2 evidently holds a great edge but I understand that it can chip easier and it's hard to sharpen when it gets dull. Are the benefits outweighing the costs?

Why aren't serations good?

Where is a good source for aftermarket sheaths, and can you buy a knife and specifically not get the sheath that is designed for it if you plan to get a different sheath?
 
Talking to people with experience, generally the only knives issued are your bayonet and sometimes ka-bars for certain units and also Gerber or Leatherman multi-tools. Soldiers often also buy Gerbers, Leathermans, SAKs, SOGs and Benchmades, all of which are available from the PX.

Apart from bayonets, there are no universally issued knives. Some commanders will buy knives for their units, others will let each soldier buy one himself (or not, as the case may be). I know some servicemen have been issued Cold Steel and Strider knives, but that is only individual units, not the whole army/airforce etc.
 
Well, I don't want to come off as a self-proclaimed expert or anything, but I do spend way more money and time in the knife world than the gun world. Even then, what you mainly get to see in my posts are my prejudices. I am pro-American manufacture. I don't care for stainless steel in a fixed blade knife over three inches long. I don't usually buy serrated knives. I don't like most "long" knives. My best folders are all Benchmade Axis locks of one flavor or another. I prefer going to the aftermarket for sheaths.

Here are the reasons I am prejudiced:

1) Buying an American knife means you usually have factory support. When you buy a Chinese import, usually if something is wrong, they ship you another Chinese import, not perhaps regrind the knife you already have or otherwise make it right at all. That is not to say that all American makers are great at customer service, but your odds are much higher that you will get it. Besides, I like seeing my money go to fellow Americans when I can help it.

2) Stainless steel has many merits as cutlery. None of those merits is in the realm of lateral strength or shock loading. Chromium in steel is an anti-corrosion element, but it also embrittles the steel to a degree. All serious steel "survival" knives are made from non-stainless steels (Strider being a notable exception), because care for the knife against corrosion is a survival assumption. Stainless is great in dive or marine environments, but everywhere else make mine out of 1095, 52100, A2, D2, INFI, or 3V before any stainlesses. The increased strength and toughness makes carbon worth the maintenance requirement.

D2 is often called semi-stainless. My opinion of it is that at six inches and below it is not too brittle for most tasks. D2 is not a good steel for "choppers," (knives that look more or less like machetes) and don't use a D2 blade as a prybar.

3) I don't like serrations. The "pro" argument for serrations is that they enable easier cutting through material like webbing, rope, and other straps because they "bite" that material. They also stay effectively cutting long after a plain edge is described as dull because serrations increase the overall cutting surface available. The "con" argument for me is that the serrations on most knives are placed so far back on the blade as to be awkward, they are tougher to field sharpen, they are more prone to corrosion if not carefully cleaned, and lastly, if you can sharpen a knife to be "scary" or "wicked" sharp, you can cut anything that can be cut and you can do it with the most logical part of the blade that presents itself, not just where your serrations are not. Serrations are great for the sharpening challenged however.

4) Most long knives, unless you are paying for the differentially tempered industructibility of Busse, are made from the "wrong" steel. Through hardened knife steel, the longer it gets, the more prone to catastrophic failure it is. So-called "spring" steels, i.e. 1084, 1070, 1060, 1050 are generally better for longer blades designed to take shock impacts. Unfortunately, most over 10" knives are not made from these grades of steel. Again, YMMV.

5) Sheaths are a matter of function and personal taste. Undoubtedly in leather the sky is the limit. In kydex, hand made beats most factory systems. I prefer kydex for hard use, though some people think it is too susceptible to extreme heat or cold. Again, and some disagree, the best of both worlds is nylon or leather with a kydex insert. Almost anyone with talent can make a kydex oriented sheath better than the mass produced ones that come in the box.

Some fine kydex or kydex/nylon combo sheaths are available from:

Dozier:
http://www.dozierknives.com/

On Scene Tactical:
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel/products.htm

Survival Sheath Systems:
http://www.survivalsheath.com/sheaths/index.htm

Of course, you will have to pay more than you might have wanted, but nothing is worse than unexpectedly losing a knife you are counting on being there.

I recommended the RAT-5, not the RAT-7. I have and love both, but the 5 is handier and will do all but the heaviest chopping jobs, for which I usually have something better than a knife in the first place. (axe v. knife v. saw, v. 'hawk is a very large debate in its own right). There is nothing wrong with the RAT-7, but I think I'd rather wear the 5 every day--in its OST aftermarket sheath of course.

I only recommend Ontario's RAT line for fixed blades from that company. The Randall Adventure Team offers no BS support for these "upscale" Ontarios. The higher quality control is there, the higher expectations are met, and if you ever have a problem, Mr. Randall and Mr. Perrin will figuratively come running to address the problem, no matter where you happen to find yourself. They are very accessible men who use and develop the product line in the jungles of South America, and they eagerly meet their goal of providing a tool that can be relied upon in almost any instance at a price everyone can afford.

That said, I think the rest of Ontario's non-RAT production is somewhat hit and miss, but at the prices paid, that is somewhat the expectation. There is a reason a Ka-Bar costs more than a run of the mill Ontario fixed blade. There is also a reason that the RAT line-up can command the prices it does over those Ka-Bars as well.

As far as pommels, again, that is a preference issue. I like the Ka-Bar pommel best if I know I have to hammer something. However, I have largely moved on from carrying a Ka-Bar just to have that one feature. In the military, some sort of Ka-Bar style knife is always around somewhere to be the beater on Uncle Sam's dime, so there is no need to carry your own flat pommel. Secondly, improvised hammers are almost everywhere you can look if rocks or green wood are available. Yet again, the flat near the handle of almost any knife with adequate striking weight can be used as an improvised hammer. All in all, it is not near my top priority in a combat utility knife. A so-called "skull crusher," like on the RAT-5, is a poor hammer, but it is a better glass breaker on vehicles at road blocks, or for escape from a vehicle, and is actually something of a backhand threat to jihadi health in any hand to hand combat.:D

If I were going to the Gulf again tomorrow, I'd take my Leatherman Surge, my Victorinox Spartanlite, my Benchmade 806D2 Axis, and my RAT-5 or a Swamprat Howling Rat I could get my hands on pretty quick for a Beretta Jetfire I'd trade it for.
 
12Bs....Now 21Bs have half assed Swiss Army knives buried in their pioneer kits.
 
No. Well, not usually.

Back to the original question, Counsel, No, the Army doesn't issue knives to common soldiers. I can't speak for elite groups like Delta Force, but as one of the previous posters pointed out, the closest thing to "issue knives" I ever saw was the bayonet, and that's only remotely a knife.:barf:

Units don't usually bother soldiers much about dress code back in the states if they want to add a black sheathed folding knife like a Gerber to their kit. This gets more and more common the closer to combat units you get. And as far as being allowed to carry one, if your soldier is in a zone where bullets routinely fly in both directions, things get a little more lax about carrying something that doesn't look all like it was issued so long as it doesn't sparkle and shine.

Very few uniformed military ever really get issued knives - most commonly, pilots get one that attaches to their survival vest. Previously mentioned in this thread
you'll find very solid advice on good choices, starting with stuff like the folding Gerber all the way up through great custom jobs that are pretty spendy.

Anyhow, I figured.... if you're a lawyer, we'd better answer your question.
You may now cross the witnesses :D
 
I'd avoid everything in the S&W line that Stewart Taylor turns out. They are an inferior product and not something you'd bet a friend's life on.

Most everything else mentioned is good. You may want to add Swamprat and the new Junkyard knives to those already mentioned. I do think the Rangers are a little large and heavy for general use and are more of a special purpose weapon.

Boat's advice is excellent, but I don't agree that serrations are a negative or only for those that don't know how to sharpen a knife. A "scarry sharp" edge is a tad slippery and the aggressive serrations will catch and rip fiberous materials very quickly. When you have a knife that provides for both you have a great combination. I do agree that they are usually badly placed on most knives and should be near the tip instead of the guard. For pilots or folks strapped in I'd advise serrations.

Big blades are a mistake. 5-7 in. is the maximum useful size for a knife that will primarily be used as a tool and may be pressed into service as a weapon. The ability to break glass or beat through plexi with a pointed butt is more valuable to a modern soldier than the hammering butt on the older "KaBar" knives.

A handy folder with locking blade or a small fixed blade and a larger fixed blade make a great combo.

I can only assume you're wanting a knife for someone headed to Iraq or Afganistan. Please tell us what they're area of responsibility will be so that we'll better know if we're pointing you in the correct direction.
 
If someone actually feels that he needs serrations, such as a pilot, just get a Spyderco folder or small fixed blade for belt cutting. At least those serrations are where they can be used well.

D'Allara Rescue

C82BK_M.jpg

Tasman Salt

C106BK_M.jpg

Temperance Serrated Fixed blade

spfbo5s.jpg
 
Some units have knives issued (just as some units have cool sun/safety glasses issued).

Something like the Becker 5" blade would be good for a soldier.

John
 
I was only issued a knife when I was in a Special Ops unit and then it was the Army/ Air Force Pilot Survival knife. Anything else we had to buy ourselves.
 
Okay I really appreciate everyones' input.

After plenty of research, seems that there are several excellent choices in steel. It seems that the main players in knife making, as recommended and as I had previously considered, were Ontario, KaBar, S&W, Becker, Buck, SOG and others.

The metals used vary greatly and there doesn't seem to be any concesus as to which metal is "best" -- a controversial topic indeed.

Seems like the ideal hardness is somewhere around 58-60.

I'm both on a budget and want to get the best knife for the money AND also one with a good sheath (I can't justify spending another $50 for a sheath when some excellent knives come with excellent sheaths). And, while a minimal consideration, a good striking pommel is a bonus is a knife for defense and for escaping auto windows, house windows, etc.

So, in a nutshell there are dozens of knives to choose from and feel that the difference, from my research anyway, is HUGE between a $10 and a $50 knife, but between a $50 and a $100 and a $150 knife is splitting hairs.

So, I went with the economical best buy -- Becker. Seems to use about the best blade metal for durability, edge, & strength. Popular ergonomical handle. A well designed standard sheath (kydex inside, while not the best I've seen, looks durable and rugged and is jump safe according to Becker. And, finally, the bonus is a pommel striker.

I liked the Becker so much, I ordered a BK7 (7") for big jobs, a Crewman BK10 (5.5") as recommended for ideal carry size, and a Becker Necker for legal concealed carry (under 3.5" blade).

Now, I had trouble finding the Necker in stock at my first two choices. I lucked out finding them all three available for the lowest prices on the 'net. $42 for the BK7, $39 for the BK10, and $29 for the Necker w/ $11 shipping. Three excellent knives and sheaths for $121 delivered!

Again, thanks for your recommendations.
 
Fresh back from the sand box myself. Not with the army but the Marine corps. The unit I was with issued bayonets to everybody (though mine was taken away by a staff sergeant who thought i would use it) and if you had the right MOS you were issued a Gerber Multi tool.






one shot one kill
 
Don't buy S&W, they're aweful. Cheap, poor quality materials and lax production standards. I'd go as far to say that the folders are a safety hazard, those locks are definitely not secure.
 
leadcounsel,

The Crewman BK10 should be a fine choice. Anything bigger than this, is, honestly, probably too much knife (except for specialized circumstances; at Air Assault School, they always had a tied-down machete ready in case of belay tangles).

Consider the gear that a modern soldier carries. I have yet to weigh mine, but I think my IBA and Sapi plates total around 40 lbs. Add your helmet, weapon, and water, and you've got a lot of weight, even without extra gear such as Molle or Alice packs.

At the museum on Stone Mountain, there are a variety of huge bowies, with the note that these were discarded in droves as the Rebs marched.

Regards,

John
 
Has been since Ethan took his designs to Camillus after Blackjack folded. It's a good question what's going to happen if the strike puts Camillus out of business, but Ethan will find a home for his designs somewhere.
 
Look very carefully at the S1 and A1 in this line:

www.fallkniven.com

I gave my son an S1 in the optional black finish when he went to Iraq.

Fallkniven products have passed strenuous tests in both Sweden and the USA and are aircrew issue in the Royal Swedish Air Force. Authorized for US aircrews, too.
 
^Aye, Fallkniven are awesome knives. +1 on the S1.

If you want a proper survival knive though, you want a Wilkinson Sword Woodlore, designed by Ray Mears. The waiting list is like four years long, but there's tons of bladesmiths around who make copies of it it, often with much more interesting handles. You could walk into a forest with one of these and a firestick and live comfortably for years with the know-how ;)

IMG_0188.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top