Does the Death Penalty Save Lives? A New Debate

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chieftain

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The only thing wrong with the Dealth Penalty is it isn't used often enough, or fast enough.

Go figure.

Fred

The New York Times.

November 18, 2007

Does Death Penalty Save Lives? A New Debate

By ADAM LIPTAK
For the first time in a generation, the question of whether the death penalty deters murders has captured the attention of scholars in law and economics, setting off an intense new debate about one of the central justifications for capital punishment.

According to roughly a dozen recent studies, executions save lives. For each inmate put to death, the studies say, 3 to 18 murders are prevented.

The effect is most pronounced, according to some studies, in Texas and other states that execute condemned inmates relatively often and relatively quickly.

The studies, performed by economists in the past decade, compare the number of executions in different jurisdictions with homicide rates over time — while trying to eliminate the effects of crime rates, conviction rates and other factors — and say that murder rates tend to fall as executions rise. One influential study looked at 3,054 counties over two decades.

“I personally am opposed to the death penalty,” said H. Naci Mocan, an economist at Louisiana State University and an author of a study finding that each execution saves five lives. “But my research shows that there is a deterrent effect.”

The studies have been the subject of sharp criticism, much of it from legal scholars who say that the theories of economists do not apply to the violent world of crime and punishment. Critics of the studies say they are based on faulty premises, insufficient data and flawed methodologies.

The death penalty “is applied so rarely that the number of homicides it can plausibly have caused or deterred cannot reliably be disentangled from the large year-to-year changes in the homicide rate caused by other factors,” John J. Donohue III, a law professor at Yale with a doctorate in economics, and Justin Wolfers, an economist at the University of Pennsylvania, wrote in the Stanford Law Review in 2005. “The existing evidence for deterrence,” they concluded, “is surprisingly fragile.”

Gary Becker, who won the Nobel Prize in economics in 1992 and has followed the debate, said the current empirical evidence was “certainly not decisive” because “we just don’t get enough variation to be confident we have isolated a deterrent effect.”

But, Mr. Becker added, “the evidence of a variety of types — not simply the quantitative evidence — has been enough to convince me that capital punishment does deter and is worth using for the worst sorts of offenses.”

The debate, which first gained significant academic attention two years ago, reprises one from the 1970’s, when early and since largely discredited studies on the deterrent effect of capital punishment were discussed in the Supreme Court’s decision to reinstitute capital punishment in 1976 after a four-year moratorium.

The early studies were inconclusive, Justice Potter Stewart wrote for three justices in the majority in that decision. But he nonetheless concluded that “the death penalty undoubtedly is a significant deterrent.”

The Supreme Court now appears to have once again imposed a moratorium on executions as it considers how to assess the constitutionality of lethal injections. The decision in that case, which is expected next year, will be much narrower than the one in 1976, and the new studies will probably not play any direct role in it.

But the studies have started to reshape the debate over capital punishment and to influence prominent legal scholars.

“The evidence on whether it has a significant deterrent effect seems sufficiently plausible that the moral issue becomes a difficult one,” said Cass R. Sunstein, a law professor at the University of Chicago who has frequently taken liberal positions. “I did shift from being against the death penalty to thinking that if it has a significant deterrent effect it’s probably justified.”

Professor Sunstein and Adrian Vermeule, a law professor at Harvard, wrote in their own Stanford Law Review article that “the recent evidence of a deterrent effect from capital punishment seems impressive, especially in light of its ‘apparent power and unanimity,’ ” quoting a conclusion of a separate overview of the evidence in 2005 by Robert Weisberg, a law professor at Stanford, in the Annual Review of Law and Social Science.

“Capital punishment may well save lives,” the two professors continued. “Those who object to capital punishment, and who do so in the name of protecting life, must come to terms with the possibility that the failure to inflict capital punishment will fail to protect life.”

To a large extent, the participants in the debate talk past one another because they work in different disciplines.

“You have two parallel universes — economists and others,” said Franklin E. Zimring, a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley, and the author of “The Contradictions of American Capital Punishment.” Responding to the new studies, he said, “is like learning to waltz with a cloud.”

To economists, it is obvious that if the cost of an activity rises, the amount of the activity will drop.

“To say anything else is to brand yourself an imbecile,” said Professor Wolfers, an author of the Stanford Law Review article criticizing the death penalty studies.

To many economists, then, it follows inexorably that there will be fewer murders as the likelihood of execution rises.

“I am definitely against the death penalty on lots of different grounds,” said Joanna M. Shepherd, a law professor at Emory with a doctorate in economics who wrote or contributed to several studies. “But I do believe that people respond to incentives.”

But not everyone agrees that potential murderers know enough or can think clearly enough to make rational calculations. And the chances of being caught, convicted, sentenced to death and executed are in any event quite remote. Only about one in 300 homicides results in an execution.

“I honestly think it’s a distraction,” Professor Wolfers said. “The debate here is over whether we kill 60 guys or not. The food stamps program is much more important.”

The studies try to explain changes in the murder rate over time, asking whether the use of the death penalty made a difference. They look at the experiences of states or counties, gauging whether executions at a given time seemed to affect the murder rate that year, the year after or at some other later time. And they try to remove the influence of broader social trends like the crime rate generally, the effectiveness of the criminal justice system, economic conditions and demographic changes.

Critics say the larger factors are impossible to disentangle from whatever effects executions may have. They add that the new studies’ conclusions are skewed by data from a few anomalous jurisdictions, notably Texas, and by a failure to distinguish among various kinds of homicide.

There is also a classic economics question lurking in the background, Professor Wolfers said. “Capital punishment is very expensive,” he said, “so if you choose to spend money on capital punishment you are choosing not to spend it somewhere else, like policing.”

A single capital litigation can cost more than $1 million. It is at least possible that devoting that money to crime prevention would prevent more murders than whatever number, if any, an execution would deter.

The recent studies are, some independent observers say, of good quality, given the limitations of the available data.

“These are sophisticated econometricians who know how to do multiple regression analysis at a pretty high level,” Professor Weisberg of Stanford said.

The economics studies are, moreover, typically published in peer-reviewed journals, while critiques tend to appear in law reviews edited by students.

The available data is nevertheless thin, mostly because there are so few executions.

In 2003, for instance, there were more than 16,000 homicides but only 153 death sentences and 65 executions.

“It seems unlikely,” Professor Donohue and Professor Wolfers concluded in their Stanford article, “that any study based only on recent U.S. data can find a reliable link between homicide and execution rates.”

The two professors offered one particularly compelling comparison. Canada has executed no one since 1962. Yet the murder rates in the United States and Canada have moved in close parallel since then, including before, during and after the four-year death penalty moratorium in the United States in the 1970s.

If criminals do not clearly respond to the slim possibility of an execution, another study suggested, they are affected by the kind of existence they will face in their state prison system.

A 2003 paper by Lawrence Katz, Steven D. Levitt and Ellen Shustorovich published in The American Law and Economics Review found a “a strong and robust negative relationship” between prison conditions, as measured by the number of deaths in prison from any cause, and the crime rate. The effect is, the authors say, “quite large: 30-100 violent crimes and a similar number or property crimes” were deterred per prison death.

On the other hand, the authors found, “there simply does not appear to be enough information in the data on capital punishment to reliably estimate a deterrent effect.”

There is a lesson here, according to some scholars.

“Deterrence cannot be achieved with a half-hearted execution program,” Professor Shepherd of Emory wrote in the Michigan Law Review in 2005. She found a deterrent effect in only those states that executed at least nine people between 1977 and 1996.

Professor Wolfers said the answer to the question of whether the death penalty deterred was “not unknowable in the abstract,” given enough data.

“If I was allowed 1,000 executions and 1,000 exonerations, and I was allowed to do it in a random, focused way,” he said, “I could probably give you an answer.”
 
The only thing wrong with the Dealth Penalty is it isn't used often enough, or fast enough.
How do you reconcile your urge for that with the people that have been unjustly sent to death row? Our legal tradition is to try to ensure no innocent man is punished even if it means letting a few bad guys walk. We already have trouble maintaing that at the rate we go at now, won't trying to go faster make it worse? I'm always surprised at how many people here support the death penalty. In any thread about government there's always a ton of people talking about how the government messes up everything they touch, but they want to put that government in charge of executing its citizens.
 
The death peanalty is a just punishment for certain crimes. It also ensures that the criminal who is executed will NEVER commit those same acts again.
With the amount of evidence that is available in this day and age, such as DNA and real time video of the events from the security cameras at the scene, executions should proceed at a much faster pace than they do.
Convicted by DNA and video evidence, you get one appeal, and off to the hangman you go.
 
I have been a strong supporter of the death penalty until about the last year, and I have said many of the things supporters of the death penalty say. However, due to the recent release of many people that have spent years and years in prison on death row only to be found undeniably innocent via DNA testing, I can no longer support it. Our justice system is so broken and flawed I just cannot rely on it to find someone guilty. The prevalance of bullying and browbeating false testimony by police, the complete disregard for actual justice by District Attorneys who place career interests over the cause of justice placed me in the unfortunate position of no longer being able to support the death penalty. I do believe that there are crimes so blatant and heinous that the perpatrators should be put to death. But, that said, I would rather release every criminal on the planet that see one innocent man put to death for crimes he did not commit.
 
Does the Death Penalty Save Lives? A New Debate
I think it would be if given a chance, but when people are kept on death row for 20-30 yrs, or til they have be put on a resperator, why say there is a death penalty.. if a jury finds a person guilty of a death sentence, then give them one appeal and carry out the sentence. the appeal should take no longer than a yr.
 
I would rather release every criminal on the planet that see one innocent man put to death for crimes he did not commit.

You do realize that by doing so, you're probably condemning a larger number of innocent people to death?

A nasty paradox, isn't it? Condemn one innocent person, or a larger, unknown number of 'em.


By the way, is there a link to that article, Chieftain?



J.C.
 
How do you reconcile your urge for that with the people that have been unjustly sent to death row? Our legal tradition is to try to ensure no innocent man is punished even if it means letting a few bad guys walk. We already have trouble maintaing that at the rate we go at now, won't trying to go faster make it worse? I'm always surprised at how many people here support the death penalty. In any thread about government there's always a ton of people talking about how the government messes up everything they touch, but they want to put that government in charge of executing its citizens.

I have never had to reconcile my urges. I believe that an innocent man should be set free. I am very glad that the science of DNA has been instrumental in letting an extremely small amount of folks on death row go free.

The vast majority, when it does apply, confirms the commission of the crimes and hence the sentence.

Now if we follow your advice, we could never execute or incarcerate anyone. After all they could be innocent. No, guilty beyond reasonable doubt, is the standard, and it still applies.

As Jamie C states, by letting all these folks go, we would condemning many truly innocent people to death, injury and loss of property. I have heard and personally witnessed the cry to incarcerate for life. Why? Because it makes some people feel better. NO!

Personally I would not allow anyone to be incarcerated for life. Why? Keep thousands of murderers alive, just in case one of them are innocent. The money saved could be used to help folks that deserve to be helped, not criminals.

I believe in the old 4 time loser law of New York, four felony commissions and they would execute you. I believe it should be after 3 convictions, but I could live with four. And I don't care whether they were violent crimes or not.

I agree there are major problems with our legal system. Let's fix them. If you have rot in the roof of your house you fix it. You don't burn down the house.

As to what is and what shouldn't be a felony, that is a totally different argument. Frankly I agree with it. But let's fix that too.

But let murderers live to murder, batter, and general be evil whether in prison or out on the streets, NO!

I have to much respect for the non criminals in our society.

Go figure.

Fred
 
When I took criminal justice back in my undergrad years (little over 10 years ago) the conventional wisdom (from academic perspective) was that Capital punishment does nothing to deter crime. I guess there is a shift now in the opposite direction. I did not agree with death penalty back then, and I do not agree now. There are plenty of cases where the criminal justice system has not worked as intended. You can fix an injustice when someone is sent to jail, but there is no fixing after one has gone six feet under.
 
It isn't a new debate, it's just new people talking about the subject. Will the death penalty stop murder, yes it will keep those who have murdered from murdering again.

jim
 
When I took criminal justice back in my undergrad years (little over 10 years ago) the conventional wisdom (from academic perspective) was that Capital punishment does nothing to deter crime. I guess there is a shift now in the opposite direction. I did not agree with death penalty back then, and I do not agree now. There are plenty of cases where the criminal justice system has not worked as intended. You can fix an injustice when someone is sent to jail, but there is no fixing after one has gone six feet under.

I don't care what the academics think. I worked a county Jail for 5 years, and a State Pen for a couple. Criminals are the problem. Less of them would create less of a problem. More of them creates more of a problem. That doesn't matter whether they are behind bars or on the street.

The number of people found innocent post conviction is infinitesimal compared to the number convicted, even by todays terrible standards.

I suggest we allow those who want to protect that one in a million guy, support them for life, including their excessive end of life costs. Let the rest of us end the criminals life that have wrought pain, loss, and death on truly innocent people.

Correct medical care eradicates disease and pestilence, not preserve it.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Of course it saves lives.

See some people view it as some sort of punishment ("Capital Punishment"), but I've never heard of a murderer coming back from the dead and murdering someone else after they've been executed. I look at it more of a means to an end in "Crime Prevention".

Once they're dead they stay dead and they can't kill anyone else. Maybe it doesn't deter anyone else from committing crime, but that particular murderer will never commit another crime ever again. That's enough of a reason for me to keep it around, but the whole system needs an overhaul.
 
I could support the death penalty if the criterion was beyond any doubt rather then beyond a reasonable doubt. If there is any doubt, the accused could go to prison until the doubt was resolved. That may be for life. I realize that would make things more difficult for police and prosecutors, and that’s ok. The Bill of Rights exists for that very reason.

I have seen the way the legal system operates and do not trust it. The last time drove I 10 through Louisiana, I saw cars with Black occupants stopped every few miles while the White people drove by at 85 MPH. I lived in a small rural community with a college. The college students got stopped and fined for everything imaginable. If they left a bar and tried to walk a couple of blocks to their houses, they got arrested for public drunk. The older people were frequently allowed to drive home. The young people frequently got fined for driving with their seat belts unfastened, but that never happened to the older people. I have never had a speeding ticket while driving on an Interstate highway or in a large city. I have has several tickets for driving 45 in a 35 while passing through a wide place in the road that called itself a city. I see no reason to believe our system treats capitol crimes any differently.
 
I agree there are major problems with our legal system. Let's fix them. If you have rot in the roof of your house you fix it. You don't burn down the house.

I couldn't agree more. I perhaps didn't state my position well. If we can get our justice system fixed I have no problem with the death penalty. As our system now stands, I can't support it.

Quoting myself:
But, that said, I would rather release every criminal on the planet that see one innocent man put to death for crimes he did not commit.

Of course I am not advocating releasing all the criminals, but I really can't buy into the concept of frying an innocent person now and again for the "greater good".

That smacks of the actions of a lot of countries that we claim we are not like.

We either are a nation of "Liberty and Justice for all", or we aren't.
 
It's kept me on the straight an narrow. There are people on earth today that would not otherwise be here were it NOT for fear of receiving the death penalty.
 
It's an interesting balance that we have to strike here. I've seen criminals from the civilian side, the judicial administrative side and the law enforcement side. As a civilian working the Dept. of Administration and Information at the State of Wyoming, I had to go to the state penitentiary in Rawlins to work on their computers and network. I've also done some counseling as a volunteer. From that side, thank god we have prisons!

As a network manager for the Wyoming Supreme Court, I was there during the Mark David Hopkins death penalty appeals. Mark David Hopkins was convicted and put to death after he ordered the executions of some of the witnesses against him while he was in prison. It cost the public defender's office $21 million all together in staff time and fees, and the State Public Defender had to ask the Governor to dip into emergency funds to keep the public defender's offices around the state open until the next fiscal year.

From the enforcement side, all I can say is that if people worked as hard at making a decent life for themselves as they did getting put in prison, they'd probably be fairly successful in life. With our permissive system as it is today, the guy who goes to prison the first time he gets in trouble with the law is either a myth or so few and far between that they're statistically insignificant. The system needs reform from top to bottom.

All that said, the threat of ultimate punishment still has to be in the back of the criminal's mind if there is to be any semblance of civilization in a society. We all know this instinctively, and I think the Europeans are learning this the hard way with their new generation of terrorists. We can also see the effect of stupid rules about how capital punishment is applied when gangs specifically recruit juveniles to do their killing because they won't be tried as adults. That's part of the price we're paying right now for our "rehabilitation takes priority over punishment" attitude. :barf:
 
I would say yes. And as Ann Coulter says in her latest book,"If Democrats had any brains,they'd be Republicans,"-------
"If the death penalty doesn't deter murder,how come Michael Moore is still alive and I'm not on death row?":cuss:
 
It sure does!

Just ask all those people in the other countries that have the death penalty:

China
Iran
North Korea
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Sudan

They're all great places to live! :rolleyes:
 
There is a saying that goes like this "the only reason some people are alive is because it's against the law to kill them". How true this is becomes a personal view point.

jim
 
As usual the most corrupt places, Chicago etc. provide most of the errors in conviction. I guess if you don't have the money to pay off the Democrats, then you get convicted of crimes someone who did have the money committed.

Geoff
Who notes the Cook county experience in IL.
Who has also noted dead people never kill again.
 
Hi Jeff,

It's not just Chicago, put a compass point on the sears tower and draw a circle of about 50 miles. But remember, the officials of Chicago are professionals and above the questions of the mere citizen. They know what's best for all of us and need not be criticized.

After all, in Chicago, a dead criminal may never kill again but he can still vote.

Selena
 
But, that said, I would rather release every criminal on the planet that see one innocent man put to death for crimes he did not commit.

Kinda sounds like the old "If we could just save one life by banning X it is worth it, for the children" X= "assault weapons", trans fat, all guns, pointy sticks. It also contains the same fallacy and false logic, outside of condeming millions to victimization.

A single capital litigation can cost more than $1 million. It is at least possible that devoting that money to crime prevention would prevent more murders than whatever number, if any, an execution would deter.
This is a flaw in our modern legal system, not a flaw in the practice of criminal excecution. Back when we had a justice system, the cost never became this outrageous, in fact this is more so an argument to the violation of the right to a speedy trial than the traditional "cruel and unusual" debate

I could support the death penalty if the criterion was beyond any doubt rather then beyond a reasonable doubt.

There is always doubt, there is nothing that can be done to eliminate 100percent doubt, hence why the forefathers had the insight to include the "reasonable doubt" criteria. The law is a balance, some innocent people will always be punished, and some, although many more guilty will walk free. It is impossible to rule out all innocents, but the vast majority of convictions stand the test of time, and most are fairly straightforward and certain, especially with modern forensics and priivate surveilence technology. Are mistakes made, definitely, should a very rare and small percentage of occurances prevent justice, a deterrent to crime, and a worthy punishment for the most heinous crimes, no. In the same way gun owners are often depicted in the company of Cho, the columbine shooters, and various other murderers, who used firearms as a tool to achieve their goal, some evil people obtain firearms, flip out, and shoot up public places. This also happens so rarely as to be nothing more than newsworthy, but statistically insignifigant as a representation of gn ownership.

Of course it saves lives.

See some people view it as some sort of punishment ("Capital Punishment"), but I've never heard of a murderer coming back from the dead and murdering someone else after they've been executed. I look at it more of a means to an end in "Crime Prevention".

While this is true, and the vast majority of crimes are commited by previous offenders, the actual net effect of 1 execution = a possibility of a prevented crime is somewhat vague, it may prevent future killings, but so does a couple life sentences without parol. The main difference, and those who would benefit the most from a capital deterent are those officers who work in the prison system. My grandfather retired from a LEO position the prison sytem, after a decades long career as a DC cop, I have also worked with part time officers in Jessup prison, worked for years to maintain police, state, city, and prison system vehicles and spoke to several LEOs daily. The main concern is that the ONLY effective deterrant against violence commited by the most heinous criminals, directed aggainst fellow inmates, guards, and staff is the death penalty. With the level of gang violence in prisons today, lacking a punishment escalation proccess can put people in danger, there are corporal punishments available, (isolation, restrictions, suspension of privileges) but they only work to a point.

Most people that truly think modern excecutions fall under the cruel and unusual exclusions set forth in the constitution have no idea of how cruel and unusual criminals can be, I think that clause was included to ensure law enforcement took "The High Road" when it comes to punishment, not to equal the level of violence that the dregs of society commit, but to quickly and without malice, bring justice to the perpetrator of a heinous crime. Just as the principles and ideals that inspired the 2nd ammenment are timeless, so are those that established the rest of the bill of rights, but there are always going to be battles as to how to maintain these principles in an ever evolving and confusing society.
 
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