Does the transition from SA to DA shooting on hammer fired guns bother you?

[Zaydok Allen]

Am I comprehending the above statement correctly as: you have a magazine loaded with live ammunition inserted in the pistol and a snap-cap in the chamber so you can practice dry-firing but be instantly ready to chamber a live round for self-defense? If my understanding of your statement is correct I really wish you would stop doing this because it really makes it easier to make a mistake that results in a negligent discharge.

Holy Hanna! No! I keep an empty magazine next to the gun and when I want to dry fire I drop the loaded mag and throw the empty one in. Then I do a press check to confirm the snap cap is chambered, which it always is since that's how I leave it.

When done dry firing, the loaded mag is reinserted and the gun is returned to its resting spot. Reload practice is only done with empty magazines and snap caps loaded in the mags. Live ammo is no where near the gun during dry fire or reload practice.

Sorry my earlier statement was unclear. I have never had a ND, but I don't let that fact ever make me think it can't happen. I practice safe handling, observe the four rules, am very deliberate in my actions, and tend to double check EVERYTHING when handling a gun.

 

[TomJ]

Maybe it's because I generally shoot either striker fired, 1911 or other SA, but the first shot in DA for me is a waste of a bullet as I'm completely inaccurate, and in a SD scenario probably a hazard to people in the area (other than who I'd be targeting). If I intended to CC one, I'd need quite a bit of practice before feeling comfortable doing so.

 

[golden]

Depends on the gun

Kodiak,

I think the real problem with traditional double action (TDA) pistols was with the pistols themselves. By that, early TDA pistols had bad triggers that were not that smooth and often too heavy.

I had a S&W 439 that I liked to shoot and thought that the trigger was ok. Later on, I bought a SIG 226 for work and the SIG was obviously much smoother and I rarely even noticed the change over.
With quality guns like the SIG 200 series and BERETTA 92/96, I found the TDA trigger to be a non-issue. Then one day, I pulled my S&W 439 out of the back of my safe and took it to the range. I was shocked at the difference. The trigger was heavy and not nearly as smooth. I sold it not long after.

When I first transitioned to a semi-auto for work, I started with a GLOCK 19. I then bought a SIG 226 to see if my qualification scores would improve. They did, even with the TDA action of the SIG, but only a little. I eventually went back to GLOCK and carried a model 17 until my agency standardized on the BERETTA 96d Brigadier which was a .40 S&W DAO pistol.
The 96d turned out to be the most accurate of all, even with the heavier, but very smooth double action only.
I have also found that the mid size .380ACP pistols made by BERETTA, the Cheetah series and the SIG 232 do not suffer from the TDA transition problem because they both have such smooth trigger actions.
I have an old WALTHER PPK and I can feel the transition, but it was not that bad.
I never felt like I was going to through away a shot with them.

For a number of years, I bought only double action only autoes (DAO) to avoid this problem, but it really boils down to how smooth is the trigger of the gun you are comparing. A SIG 220, 225, 226, 228 or 229 or BERETTA 92/96 may change your mind.
The thing that you need to have is a smooth transition from double action to single action. If you do, the transition is a non issue, at least for me.

Jim

 

[Nom de Forum]

Thanks for clearing that up 460Kodiak! I was a little worried for you.

 

[Tallball]

I know that it bothers some people, but I don't really understand why. I am just fine with SA revolvers, DA revolvers, SA autos, SA/DA autos, DA striker autos, or whatever. It just takes enough practice to get used to that particular handgun. Maybe it's just different for me because I'm used to variety.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I have a DA/SA hammer fired gun (S&W 469) and a SA/DA striker fired gun (Taurus 709) and like them both equally. The Taurus is my EDC, due to the weight and slim profile making it easier to carry. But I feel the S&W is going to be outlast and be more reliable than the Taurus in the long run.
I like the consistent trigger pull of the striker fired pistol, and the double strike ability of the Taurus, but I dislike the manual external safety and the integral lock. Safety isn't a bad thing, but too much safety on a carry gun is not ideal for me. It'll get replaced eventually, with either another S&W, or possibly a Ruger.

The DA heavy trigger pull on my S&W is what I use as the safety. With the bobbed hammer, the safety acts as a decocker. But I do carry it with the safety off and a round chambered. The 12# pull is a safety unto itself, then the subsequent pulls are much lighter.

I'm also okay with SAO hammer fired semi auto pistols, like the 1911 or BHP, just as I'm okay with striker fired pistols like the Glock or S&W M&P.

I have no real preference.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I have no use for a DA/SA sidearm unless it can be carried cocked-and-locked to avoid transitioning from one trigger pull and type to another. Speaking just for myself and with no offense meant to those who like them, I see no reason for those guns to exist circa 2015. They were an solution that allowed people to switch to auto pistols without intensive training but IMO they cause as many problems as they fix. I know there are folks who can drop the DA round and SA round right on top of each other but I am not one of those folks.

To me there are vastly better options available! Give me a striker fired gun or something like HKs LEM. Much better in every way (to me). Consistent pull from shot to shot, not training for the transition. In the case of HK you can even keep a manual safety on your LEM is you like.

The only DA/SA guns I have are a USPf9, USPc9 and P30S. All of them are carried cocked-and-locked. But I also have a VP9 and P30L with a V1 LEM and considering transitioning to all LEM or striker guns in the future.

 

[RugerBob]

I just prefer SA over DA and its probably because most of my handguns are SA only.
I have some SA/DA's. Prefer to use my DA and SA as for me its better for me to POA.

 

[ritepath]

I grew up shooting revolvers and crappy old hammer fired Taurus' 92s in the 80's.

Makes shooting my current SA/DAs seem easy.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Thanks for clearing that up 460Kodiak! I was a little worried for you.

And thank you for the concern. Based on how I worded that statement, the confusion is understandable.

 

[Fremmer]

The anticipation of the difference in trigger pull is worse than the actual difference in practice.

 

[Ankeny]

I know that it bothers some people, but I don't really understand why.

I shot a CZ 75B in IPSC/USPSA for a little while. I made Master with it, switching to another platform just a percent or two shy of GM. I just find it hard to warm up to a DA/SA pistol. Personal preference.

 

[CommanderCrusty]

I don't see the problem. All trigger pulls are the same.

Put your finger on the trigger.
Take up the slack.
Add some initial trigger pressure.
Roll back/Increase pressure till the gun fires.
Release trigger forward till it resets.
Repeat as necessary.

Same exact steps with Ruger GP100 revolver, Ruger SR9 or Ruger P345.
Same with a Smith and Wesson Combat Magnum, M&P 9mm or 4506.

 

[ny32182]

The problem with IDPA is that the biggest sponsor by far makes the M&P, and the greatest champ shoots a Glock, so everyone in that sport thinks you can't win with DA/SA.

In USPSA Production, the top levels of the sport are completely dominated by DA/SA.

When I switched from M&P to DA/SA for competition, I came in anticipating months of serious practice to master the DA pull. It was the opposite. I was reasonably competent with the DA pull literally from day 1 (of course improvement has been made since as well) while it took longer to become fully in tune with the single action pull. The difference was that "prep" levels of pressure on the M&P = "bang" levels of pressure on my new gun, and as a result I was throwing Cs and Ds all over the place hardcore for the first couple weeks. That is not something you can work out in dryfire either; for the SA you just have to shoot a lot of ammo to learn it. DA, you can get a lot done efficiently in dry fire since it auto-resets.

So bottom line, if you are willing to practice, I don't think it matters much. For carry it is actually not high on my priority list; I consider many other things more important, like size, weight, overall ergos, etc.

 

[Ankeny]

In USPSA Production, the top levels of the sport are completely dominated by DA/SA.

True enough. Do you think world class shooters are using Shadows and Stock II pistols because of the action? Maybe they just tolerate the DA (with a ton of work) because of other attributes of the guns.

 

[ny32182]

If they allowed SAO in Production I imagine there would be plenty of that represented as well. Yes, I'd say the primary driver for DA/SA in Production is that you just have one long DA pull, and then a pretty nice trigger for the other 95% of the shots that is better than any striker gun will ever be. Also the guns are more accurate than virtually anything with a striker. I guess it is fair to say they "tolerate" the DA pull, but anyone who wants to put a little time in can learn a good level of proficiency with the DA shot (That isn't most cops... just being honest... hence we have the Glock). It is really not a big deal.

 

[strambo]

That's why I like the DA/SA for defense, the DA provides a safe first shot with no safety needed, and all the rest are SA, best of both worlds.

 

[farscott]

After spending my formative shooting years with DA revolvers, I got familiar with the DA trigger and how to shoot it. I still believe the best training for a DA/SA pistol is to get a S&W 17 or 617 and shoot it DA every shot. After several bricks of .,22, the basics are there. The lack of recoil allows one to see how their trigger press is breaking, and the training is (relatively) inexpensive. If one can shoot a DA revolver, one can shoot most any handgun.

From DA revolvers, I branched out to the wonder-nines and eventually into the 1911. As I got more serious about shooting a gun defensively in the early 1990s, I went back to my roots, starting with DAO Ruger SP-101s, as I believe that trigger pull distance, not weight, reduces NDs caused by stress and the startle reflex. Love those guns (and still use them as backups) but wanted more capacity. I spent a few years with the 3rd Generation S&W DAO autos, specifically the 5944 and 5946, as well as the 1911.

The 1911 is the pistol I enjoy shooting the most and the easiest to conceal, and the one on which I have the most trigger time. The 1911 has been my biggest love, and the pistol that most violates my desire for a long trigger press. But that short, crisp 1911 trigger press makes shooting the gun such a joy. During the AWB magazine limit, the eight rounds of 230-grain JHP .45 ACP in a 1911 made me feel better than ten rounds of something else. But one time I failed to apply the safety before holstering when my "pattern" was broken. Luckily, nothing bad happened, but it was a wake-up call. I still will carry a 1911, and I trained extensively to reflexively switch the safety ON and OFF.

I went to the HK LEM system after my wife jumped from the S&W 65 to the S&W 4046 to the P30 LEM. I also experimented heavily with the Glock system, but I have never been comfortable with the short trigger pull without a thumb safety like on the 1911. I could all too easily see how that short consistent trigger could cause me issues when holstering. I also fiddled with the SIG P220 and the Colt Double Eagle when I got serious about the 1911. It was at that point that I realized that I could fail to de-cock the gun and attempt to holster a cocked gun just like I failed to once apply the 1911 safety.

I really like the LEM hammer guns due to the consistent long and smooth trigger, the impossibility of failing to de-cock before holstering, and the ability to feel the hammer while holstering. I considered the Beretta 92D but prefer to carry the HK due to the thinner profile and lighter weight. The HK guns are available in 9x19 (P30) and .45 ACP (HK 45C) and use the same holsters. So I can pick which cartridge I want or when I need to carry in a state that does not like the fifteen-round P30 magazines.

Back to the original question: Does the DA/SA transition bother me? No, it does not. What bothers me is the extra step needed to de-cock the DA/SA gun when the shooting is done or does not need to start. Not that the step is hard, but that I can, under stress or if my habit is interrupted, forget to de-cock. Since I can shoot the first shot DA, I can shoot them all DA. Plus, the LEM DA is much lighter than the S&W DA and smoother than the first shot from a S&W DAO 3rd Generation.

 

[Gun nutty]

I like the safety system on my FN Herstal FNX40. you can carry the gun cocked and locked like a 1911, or carry glock style (safety off, hammer down) or you can carry as a safety freak (hammer down, safety on) good options and also has a decocker.