I don't see a lot of 2" groups on targets 20 yards away regardless of action type when someone is shooting at speed. Let's be serious - most striker-fired shooters are not stacking the shots into snakeyes on their first target, or any other target, if they're in a match and trying to win.
What is a "DA/SA transition"?
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Walt Sherrill
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ATLdave said:
The comment ABOUT 2" groups (or the ability, when using a DA/SA gun to place both shots where they're supposed to go) wasn't about any given action type's superiority or inferiority, but about the tendency of some to inflate their real-world performance when discussing those results on forums like this.
I also wrote, "If you can do well-placed 1st and 2nd shots, regardless of your gun's action-type, you'll do as well as the time and situation allows."
That said, I doubt that folks in REAL-LIFE self-defense shootings will shoot as well as many of us do in gun game matches or at the range where, while there can be some stress, the only thing really at risk is one's ego. The targets at the range or in a match are almost never a complete surprise, and they are certainly are NOT coming at you with knife in hand or shooting at you as they advance.
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OK, but this thread is mostly about whether there's some big disadvantage to a DA/SA action (specifically around the 1st and 2nd shots) versus striker actions. I don't think we have the data to measure that based on combat results. So we'll have to look at things like competition as a proxy.
Walt Sherrill
Member
ATLDave said:
Gun games are a proxy, and may be the best we've got, but they are arguably a poor proxy at best. I can't think of anything better, but...
As I've noted, the results I've seen in a lot of gun game matches (where I scored targets), or at the range, are seldom as good as many folks claim on forums like this -- regardless of action type. And in my experience, having scored many such targets, DA/SA first and second shot placement follows that same form: seldom as good as claimed. (I also acknowledge that a lot of folks using SA or DAO gun don't necessarily shoot better, either. But they don't claim that they do.)
As many times as I've been to the range over the years, I've almost never seen anyone practicing DA/SA shots from the holster -- working on the DA/SA transition. Sadly, some ranges don't allow shooters to do that.
Jim Watson
Member
Sometimes I think I am the worst shot on the internet. How DARE I advise my betters!
Walt Sherrill
Member
Jim Watson said:
A number of us are probably competing with your for that lowly status. The problem, however, is that it's easy to infer someone is your better if the only proof you've got is their stated/claimed performance. When I see comments from a shooter I know (or from the shooter's reported performance elsewhere, like a USPSA or IDPA regional, national match, or international matches, or videos on YouTube from folks like Jerry Miculek), I tend to be a believer, but otherwise I tend to be very skeptical when it comes to reports of shooting skills and shooting performances.
Shooting performance reports are sometimes a bit like fish stories.
Now I'm really confused. So is your point that DA/SA shooters aren't generally better than striker or SAO shooters? That seems very plausible to me.
Well, I have no idea what to make of that. Obviously, people who don't practice drawing from a holster are going to have problems drawing from a holster.
Walt Sherrill
Member
ATLDave said:
Sorry about any confusion, but one of my points is rather simple. In the gun games, unless a very proficient shooter is handling the gun, the person using a DA/SA weapon on a target that calls for two shots on target in about the same place, the groups for DA/SA shooters tend to be a bit more varied than folks using SA or DAO guns. After the first two shots, the differences between the action types might be very similar. And for the better shooters, you probably can't tell the difference.
The other point is that it's easy to claim having mastered the DA/SA transition, but it's hard to offer evidence of that mastery.
ATLDave said:
Drawing from the holster isn't really the issue -- as that basic process is the same regardless of action type. It's what you do once the gun is up, on target, and you're ready to press the trigger for the first shot. (With a SA gun, you'll have to release the safety after the gun is safely out of the holster and being raised to engage the target.)
I said I seldom seei folks using DA/SA guns practicing presentations (i.e., from the holster) as part of their range routine.. What they should be doing is decocking after every two shots, holstering the gun, and starting all over again.
What I see at the range, most often, is someone pulling out a DA/SA gun, racking the slide to chamber the first round, and SOMETIMES decocking the gun before they start, but he or she generally just starts shooting. (And these folks tend to shoot their targets so full of holes that they can't really tell, after a relatively brief time, whether they're getting any better or whether any thing they're changing is helping or hindering them.
When I'm shooting with my son and grandson (my son is a fairly accomplished shooter), I generally print up a bunch of targets from the internet and get them to change targets every 5-10 rounds. We shoot a lof at an indoor range, so changing targets isn't all that time-consuming. It's pretty easy to tell if you're improving, and I've learned when it's time to call it a day. (I also try hard to avoid caffeine on a day when I know I'm going to the range.)
It may be that the folks who HAVE mastered the DA/SA transition don't spend msuch time in matches or shooting at ranges -- they may have their own setup at home where they work on or mprove their technique. (There's not any USPSA matches within easy driving distance of where I live, but we do have IDPA -- and that's where I have done the most of my "match" fact gathering. Lots of Striker-fired guns in those IDPA matches (Glocks and M&P, and soon, I expect, we'll see more SIGs), and a lot of SA guns, but not so many DA/SA SIGs or Berettas, nowadays, as once was the case.
I'll have to start looking specifically for that, but in RO'ing a few thousand USPSA shooters, I haven't noticed that. Of course, I'm just looking for A/C/D/M hits, not groups. Nobody is shooting for groups in that game!
The trend has very much been the other direction in USPSA, although not towards Sigs or Berettas - towards the heavier, steel-framed DA/SA guns, like Tanfo's and CZ's. Still a fair number of Glocks around, but tons of the CZ-ish stuff from those who are serious about the sport in the production division. We have a lot of folks who come in shooting Glocks and then switch over to the heavier-framed guns later. There's an adjustment period for any change in guns, but it doesn't seem to be that lengthy. Of course, these are all people who do some level of practice.
I noted several posts ago (unless it was in another thread), dealing with a long DA pull is probably difficult for people who don't actually shoot, but who do have to carry a gun.
Note: My regular gamer gun is SAO. When I play in production, I use a striker-fired gun. I have no particular alliegence to DA/SA, I'm just relaying what I've observed.
mcb
Member
But the DA/SA in USPSA Production is a very recent fad. When production was first introduced it was dominated by Glocks and to a lesser degree M&P and XD. I don't think that the CZ and its clones take over of Production (over half of this years nationals used a CZ or a clone) has much to do with its DA/SA fire-control but the simple weight of the guns. Production guns cannot have artificial weight added to them (the way Limited and Open can) they can't be more that 2 oz (IIRC) heavier than the manufactures reported weight. So to get a heavy gun you need to start with a heavy gun from the factory. CZ's all steel construction make them some of the heavier production legal guns.
7 out of the last 7 production nationals winners has been shooting a DA/SA. Whether this constitutes a "recent fad" is perhaps a matter of opinion, but it's not a 1-3 year flash.
I agree that the weight is a significant factor, and probably more so than the trigger. OTOH, most USPSA stages are going to be between 8 and 32 rounds, with an average round count well upwards of 20. Trading off one longer, heavier trigger pull in exchange for every subsequent pull being better (crisper, and often lighter) than can easily be had with a striker isn't a bad trade in that game.
JeeperCreeper
Member
It's not the distance the finger travels that is the issue, it's the tension on the trigger.
If you shoot a striker for many years, and switch to a DA/SA there is going to be a transition. I'm more confused how that's NOT a given...
...ever drive someone else's car and hit the brakes for the first time and get whiplash? Do it every time I switch from my Jeep to my Gf's Kia.
If you shoot a striker for many years, and switch to a DA/SA there is going to be a transition. I'm more confused how that's NOT a given...
...ever drive someone else's car and hit the brakes for the first time and get whiplash? Do it every time I switch from my Jeep to my Gf's Kia.
Jim Watson
Member
I don't think it is a fad. It started as a response to the IPSC Production 5 lb first shot trigger pull minimum, and is spreading to USPSA as shooters decide it works there, too.
I was there in the early days of IDPA when E. Langdon showed us a crunchenticker would work, if you did.
I was there in the early days of IDPA when E. Langdon showed us a crunchenticker would work, if you did.
I don't think anyone disputes that. The dispute is over whether learning that longer/heavier initial pull (and then following it with a lighter, shorter pull) is hard to learn.
Any time you change guns/basic trigger types, there's a bit of a transition to return to the same performance level.
mcb
Member
Agree.
Maybe a fad is the wrong word but its not been until the last 3-4 years that DA/DA have taken over a majority of the USPSA Production nationals, Even in 2016 Glock alone still held 25% of the competitors down to only 12% in 2017.
If someone made an all steel striker fired Production legal gun that weighed as much as a CZ I think you would see an increase of striker fired guns in Production.
mcb
Member
Other than Production shooters who would buy such a gun? Most guys buying an all steel guns are going to buy a 1911s. Who buys those big heavy CZ and clones other than Production shooters?
Well, EAA imports their Stock II and Stock III's in 9 (obviously a sensible choice for Production gamers and 3-gun) and 40 (maybe for weirdos who like 40 minor) and 38 super and 10mm and 45. None of those really have any useful place in Production.
I think a lot of people shoot a heavy steel gun and think "holy sheet, this is easy to shoot!" Even if they're not playing a game with it. 1911's soak up a lot of that market, but a lot of people still like higher magazine capacity and/or regard the 1911 as antiquated and/or already have a 1911 and want something different and/or find that the wider backstrap makes the recoil more comfortable.
But you'd have to see quite a few to recoup all the costs of developing a whole pattern from scratch. We'll have to see if the heavy-pistols-shoot-better realization continues to spread.
I think a lot of people shoot a heavy steel gun and think "holy sheet, this is easy to shoot!" Even if they're not playing a game with it. 1911's soak up a lot of that market, but a lot of people still like higher magazine capacity and/or regard the 1911 as antiquated and/or already have a 1911 and want something different and/or find that the wider backstrap makes the recoil more comfortable.
But you'd have to see quite a few to recoup all the costs of developing a whole pattern from scratch. We'll have to see if the heavy-pistols-shoot-better realization continues to spread.
tipoc
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It is a given. It's just not as much an issue as some theorize. You get past it with some time and experience.
Regarding the issue of the difference between where the first da shot lands versus the second shot, well yeah there is a difference. But, in the real world, not as much as folks think and when worked with, even less. But it's there and it has the potential to be an issue if not attentive to it. But isn't that the same for many things in handgunning.
JeeperCreeper
Member
From the OP:
This is what I was responding to... Which I hear alot of "gunshop talk" about it. I wasn't referring to competitors or pro shooters.
I agree, I was just derailing it seems...
This is what I was responding to... Which I hear alot of "gunshop talk" about it. I wasn't referring to competitors or pro shooters.
I agree, I was just derailing it seems...
Plan2Live
Member
Statistics show that the chances I will ever have to draw my pistol in self defense are minutely slim. And in the self defense encounters that do involve gunfire I don't recall reading the majority of attackers brushing off a gunshot wound and continuing to fight. Has it happened, sure, is it likely to happen, that's my call to make but THANK YOU for the emphasis. I stand by my risk assessments and my skill level and I am comfortable with both.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Plan2Live said:
I'm curious -- what is the source of the statistics that show that the chances any of us will have to draw a pistol in self defense are minutely slim?
The number of pistols fired in self-defense may be counted in a number of different databases, but number of times pistols are drawn in self defense will never be accurately reported -- I don't think anyone even tries to tally that activity.
And, if the need to draw is minutely small, the need to carry a weapon or have a home defense weapon is also minutely small. I would argue, however, that while you might feel comforted by the slim likelihood of ever needing to use a firearm, if your number is called, you will still have a 100% need to use it effectively.
In some parts of the country, home invasions seem to be on the rise, and if your home is invaded, you might have time enough to be ready. (We have an alarm system here at home -- and if someone comes in the house while we're here, the alarm is going to go off.) But if we're jumped in a parking lot, at the mall, or at an ATM, the odds are going to favor the bad guy a bit.
Plan2Live said:
The accounts I've read suggests that there are determined attackers and others who aren't up to the task. Whether they stop or not depends on the attacker: 1) Is he/she on drugs? 2) Is he or she experienced (i.e., has been there, done that, and knows what s/he is doing)? 3) Is there more than one attacker? 4) Is the attacker really intent on doing you harm? If the the attacker (or attackers) is inexperienced, many will give up the fight as soon as the first shot is fired -- whether hit or not -- but others won't stop until they are stopped or they stop you.
I've read a lot of statistics about the nature of shootings, and most of the police/FBI data doesn't pay much attention to civilian self-defense shootings. Most police or FBI stats are focused on LEO vs Bad Guy encounters. Other studies show that many civilian encounters will include 3-4 shots fired, and at least some of them will be aimed. Some may include STOPS. (Whether the bad guy is stopped because he just quits, or because the bad guy can't continue isn't always noted.)
I've also read about a number of encounters between police and armed attackers where the shootouts take a lot more shots than you'd expect, and I've also read about the armed encounters by civilians in the NRA magazines -- some are up close and personal, and other are across a room, or at the other end of the house or business.
As you look through the following summary of a large number of shootouts, don't pay a lot of attention to the calibers used and their relative effectiveness, but just look at the number of events involved and how many rounds are fired. And note that all of these were guns NOT in holsters or pockets. https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
I doubt that most civilians involved in a self-defense altercation will ever shoot a lot of rounds -- but 2-3 rounds fired by the civilian is pretty common. Some of those shots may ben hits to non-critical areas, or just misses.
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I think we've moved well out of the parameters of the OP and are falling back into comparisons...which wasn't the question
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