chief99
Member
Going to start loading 45 acp , 230 gr. lead. Lee manual data , starting 4.5 gr. Universal , max 5.4 . Speer manual data for the same bullet , starting 5.2 to 5.5 Universal . Why the different numbers on the same bullet ?
Don't understand ?
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
1. It's not the same bullet, it's just lead, and the same weight.
2. Lee has no pressure test equipment. All the data they publish was copied from some other published source.
3. Even then, different test equipment and pressure measuring methods were used by Speer and wherever Lee got thier data.
4. Speer doesn't, and never has made or sold cast bullets.
They make Speer lead bullets by swaging soft lead wire, not casting with harder alloy used in cast bullets.
5. 0.1 grain of Universal difference in Max load is not even measurable in the real world.
Your powder measure won't throw Universal reliably within 0.1 grain from charge to charge.
Fogadaboutit!!
rc
2. Lee has no pressure test equipment. All the data they publish was copied from some other published source.
3. Even then, different test equipment and pressure measuring methods were used by Speer and wherever Lee got thier data.
4. Speer doesn't, and never has made or sold cast bullets.
They make Speer lead bullets by swaging soft lead wire, not casting with harder alloy used in cast bullets.
5. 0.1 grain of Universal difference in Max load is not even measurable in the real world.
Your powder measure won't throw Universal reliably within 0.1 grain from charge to charge.
Fogadaboutit!!
rc
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chief99
Member
Don't understand
So, RC . What would you suggest my starting load would be ?
So, RC . What would you suggest my starting load would be ?
lckdnldd
Member
It is my understanding that different manuals/distributors use different test equipment to get their data so they get different results. When I am researching a load and find different charge weight data in different manuals I go with the lowest starting charge weight listed. When in doubt go the safe route.
Ironicaintit
Member
Make some at 5.0, then 5.2, 5.4, etc. and see what ya like.
I think Lee (and hornady data) tend to err on the side of caution and implied liability.
I think Lee (and hornady data) tend to err on the side of caution and implied liability.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Not to speak for RC, this is what I do...
Hodgdon Load Data site is listing the same data as in the Lee manual. I tend to trust the powder manufacturer/distributor most. If I have 3 or 4 different listings I sometimes take an average of all and use that number. Also remember, different manuals most times use different seating depths when they load, changing the starting and max charge weights.
In this case since Hodgdon is giving a starting charge of 4.5gr Universal under a LRN bullet I see no reason not to start there if you want to go that low. Personally I would probably start at ~5.0gr working up if that load isn't as accurate as I want. I'm saying this because Hodgdon is using an OAL of only 1.200" and I have never loaded a 45 Auto round with that OAL, I usually use 1.255" to 1.270". Of course your gun moght like something different and the PLUNK test will tell you what to use.
moxie
Member
If what you have is a cast bullet, I advise you to find a manual that has the appropriate data. I think the best source for cast is the Lyman manual. I don't have the current one that includes Universal as one of the powders. As rc said, Lee data is derivative. The Speer data is for swaged bullets, not cast lead. So Lyman is the place to go.
See here:
http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bu...819365&sr=8-4&keywords=lyman+reloading+manual
Get their 49th manual too. The Speer and Lyman handbooks need to be on your shelf along with Sierra and Hornady.
See here:
http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bu...819365&sr=8-4&keywords=lyman+reloading+manual
Get their 49th manual too. The Speer and Lyman handbooks need to be on your shelf along with Sierra and Hornady.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Do what archangelcd said.
That's what I would do too.
rc
That's what I would do too.
rc
Detritus
Member
Archangel already covered what I was going to say
not universal but a good illustration of the point. One of the manuals I have lists a starting load for W231 + a 230 FMJ of 4.9grs or thereabouts, Hodgdon lists a max of 5.3 (start is 4.3). in my gun with a OAL of 1.260" it took 5.3grs to get 231 to burn reasonably clean
not universal but a good illustration of the point. One of the manuals I have lists a starting load for W231 + a 230 FMJ of 4.9grs or thereabouts, Hodgdon lists a max of 5.3 (start is 4.3). in my gun with a OAL of 1.260" it took 5.3grs to get 231 to burn reasonably clean
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I believe reloading manuals seem "conflicting" because of my easy explanation to a newbe a while back;
Suppose you had a room full of lab technicians employed by 12 different powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers, and reloading equipment manufacturers. You told them to go back to their labs and come up with load data for a specific cartridge, with a specific weight/type bullet. They went back to their labs and used their own manufacturing lots of powder, primers, cases and bullets. They tested their charges on their own equipment, some using PSI measuring equipment, some using CUP equipment. Some had universal receivers with barrels with untold number of rounds through it and some might use brand new, tight barrels. Some may use real guns, again some well worn and some new. Some may have brand new state of the art facilities with controlled conditions (humidity, temperature), and some may not. Then they all came back with their results. Do you think all the results would be identical?
Suppose you had a room full of lab technicians employed by 12 different powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers, and reloading equipment manufacturers. You told them to go back to their labs and come up with load data for a specific cartridge, with a specific weight/type bullet. They went back to their labs and used their own manufacturing lots of powder, primers, cases and bullets. They tested their charges on their own equipment, some using PSI measuring equipment, some using CUP equipment. Some had universal receivers with barrels with untold number of rounds through it and some might use brand new, tight barrels. Some may use real guns, again some well worn and some new. Some may have brand new state of the art facilities with controlled conditions (humidity, temperature), and some may not. Then they all came back with their results. Do you think all the results would be identical?
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Lee's data appears to be the Hodgdon Data.
You end up with different data because of different test setups, different bullets, different primers, lots of powder, OAl, different hardness of the lead in lead bullets etc.
As long as the data are close I would not be concerned.
Listed MAX charges are the MAX for the test setup and may or may not be safe in your firearm. (fine print in most manuals)
You should always work up to MAX charges.
Checking my notes I liked 5gr with MBC 230 softball lead bullets (5.2 was close), but decided to save the Universal for 9mm.
HP38 worked better for me in .45 APC.
(I do Really like Universal for 9mm Luger and 9 MAK)
You end up with different data because of different test setups, different bullets, different primers, lots of powder, OAl, different hardness of the lead in lead bullets etc.
As long as the data are close I would not be concerned.
Listed MAX charges are the MAX for the test setup and may or may not be safe in your firearm. (fine print in most manuals)
You should always work up to MAX charges.
Checking my notes I liked 5gr with MBC 230 softball lead bullets (5.2 was close), but decided to save the Universal for 9mm.
HP38 worked better for me in .45 APC.
(I do Really like Universal for 9mm Luger and 9 MAK)
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