Double Tap Ammo...

[valorius]

What are your qualifications?

I can read. What are yours?

Do you understand the purpose of penetration studies with handgun bullets?

Yes i do.

It is to measure how much tissue can be potentially destroyed by bullet wounding channels. The deeper the wound, the more tissue damage leading to blood-loss incapacitation. Making the hole itself doesn't incapacitate an aggressor.

Stopping power has far more to do with who youre shooting than what youre shooting him with. If the will to fight on exists, no round you use is going to work quickly (short of a CNS hit). If that will is not present, any round will work.

Why go for minimum?

Because i don't want to shoot innocent bystanders or my neighbors.

12-15" is ideal IMO. That's plenty enough to get into the vitals from most aspects, while also reducing the chance of over-penetration. You may note that almost all SD rounds will penetrate 12-15" in gel. I wonder why.

And please don't compare rifle bullets to handgun bullets.

Why? Because doing so calls into question your point?

The fact is that 5.56mm military ammo rarely penetrates more than 15" (and only the tip), and most of the damage is in the 10" or less range, where the body of the projectile fragments violently.

 

[Manco]

The fact is that 5.56mm military ammo rarely penetrates more than 15" (and only the tip), and most of the damage is in the 10" or less range, where the body of the projectile fragments violently.

It's not the middling penetration or even the fragmentation that does the major damage, it's the 5.56mm's kinetic energy that tears up the target's insides, and even then it is only barely able to do so--only at close range, especially out of a carbine-length barrel. The fragmentation is merely a side-effect or indicator of this explosive effect, which the 5.56mm doesn't always have.

The fact that some 5.7mm rounds also fragment does NOT imply that they have anywhere near the amount of kinetic energy necessary to cause such damage. Some .22 LR rounds also fragment when shot out of rifles, but that does not in any way mean that they're effective--quite the opposite, actually, as such a low-energy round needs to hold together and penetrate deeply in order to be effective, much like a handgun round does, and the same is true of 5.7mm (even out of a P90).

Think of this explosive effect on flesh as a rubber band being stretched. Stretch it a little, and it will return to its previous form, with no harm done. But stretch it past a certain point and it will snap, resulting in permanent damage. 5.7mm is not nearly energetic enough to stretch human flesh to the breaking point like 5.56mm can. Both may have rounds that fragment (as does .22 LR), but they do not do damage in the same manner or amount whatsoever, so stop making this false comparison.

Why? Because doing so calls into question your point?

I've reminded you of the above several times now, and you've never responded, yea or nay. Why? Because doing so calls into question your point?

 

[valorius]

The calling into question point wasn't even directed at you.

What causes the 5.56mm damage is not the temporary cavity alone. It is the fragmentation combined with the large temporary cavity that causes large scale muscle and tissue detachment.

The two mechanisms work together to create all that damage.

I am very well read on this subject.

And yes, some 5.7 rounds- namely the high velocity V-Max offerings from EA ammo exhibit the same sort of characteristics as 5.56mm rounds. "explosive" fragmentation combined with a large temporary wound cavity. How did we get onto the topic of 5.7mm in this conversation?

 

[Manco]

The calling into question point wasn't even directed at you.
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How did we get onto the topic of 5.7mm in this conversation?

Never mind, then--it's a result of responding to too many similar posts too quickly. I'm sorry if I offended in any way.

 

[valorius]

No, not at all. I did not mean to sound snappy in my response. We were debating the 5.7 topic in another thread, and we just got some thread creep.

No biggie at all, i think you're a very sharp cookie my friend.