Doughnut pattern w/#1 Buck

[kenno]

I have 2 Rem-870's
One is a wingmaster with a screw-in choke (full)
The other is a 20" riotgun (no choke)
with Remington 2 3/4" buffered #1 buckshot both guns shoot doughnut patterns. The riot gun shoots a pattern so large that at 20 yards it encircles a 18" target.
The full choked 870's pattern is also larger than expected at 20 yards and has verticle strings of pellets on either side of the doughnut, at 40 yards it too is larger than a typical target size.
What do I do?

 

[oneounceload]

Start by having someone else shoot the gun; if the same results, try different ammo

 

[Murphys Law]

Thats a typical buckshot pattern on the 20" riotgun. Most use a cylinder bore choke and and a general rule of thumb is that you will get about one inch of spread per yard from the target. 7 yards from target = 7 inch group, etc. Its why they are generally used at close ranges. I'm not sure of whats a standard pattern with full choke at 40 yards.

 

[Al LaVodka]

Huh? Murph, I think snack food is the point. The OP is talking doughnuts. That's NOT a standard pattern for anything but shot out of a rifled barrel. And the two strings!?
Al

 

[Murphys Law]

I have seen the circular pattern with 18 inch improved cylinder riot guns ,numerous times. Usually with Remington or Winchester buckshot. Federal buckshot patterns the best and rarely makes a donut pattern. I've never tried to pattern a full choke gun with buckshot so I don't have a clue as to whats normal for that setup. Did I miss something? I didn't see anything about a rifled barrel.

 

[kenno]

No they are smooth bores. I was hoping that switching to another brand of ammo, maybe something with a shot-cup would straighten them out.

 

[Maverick223]

I'd give Winchester a shot if you can find any. It is buffered and has a shot cup. Also available (well somewhat) in 3in. Mag if that floats you boat. I use Win. 2¾" No. 1 buck now, and have some 3" Mag on order to try out.

 

[foghornl]

Try as many different brands as you can find locally.

Took me A LOT of time and some $$, but what I found is that the Rem #4 Buck works best in my Maverick 88 w/18-1/2" cylinder-bored barrel.

 

[huntsman]

One is a wingmaster with a screw-in choke (full)

try a mod choke

 

[Fred Fuller]

kenno,

What size pattern are you looking for, at what range? Chances are there's a load available that will give you what you want out of each barrel, but it will take a little experimentation with different loads to find it.

If you want seriously tight patterns in your riot gun, try a 2 3/4" Federal 00 load with the FliteControl wad- one of their LE or Premium loads.

For moderately sized patterns out of the short barrel, try any major manufacturer's standard load in 2 3/4" 00, either standard velocity or reduced recoil. Remington, Federal, Winchester, Fiocchi- one or more of those should do what you want.

And if you want the riot gun to be a genuine scattergun, try S&B, Rio Royal or the like.

I've never found any barrel/choke tube that would pattern #1 buck for me, and I've been looking for decades. I'm told there are barrels out there that shoot it well, but I've never owned one.

hth,

lpl

 

[hammerklavier]

Sounds like something got those pellets spinning. Obviously, that brand doesn't work in your gun.

 

[natman]

Why are you patterning a cylinder bore shotgun with buckshot at 40 yards?

I realize that 40 yards is the traditional distance for patterning choked shotguns for wingshooting, but I'd suggest that you change your distance to something more appropriate for your actual application. If it's HD try 20 yards max.

 

[RyanM]

No they are smooth bores. I was hoping that switching to another brand of ammo, maybe something with a shot-cup would straighten them out.

A shot cup should help. In my experience, non-cup loads are much more suceptible to doughnut-ing, through certain barrels. However, I'm not aware of any #1 loads that use a cup. You'll probably have to get 00.

 

[Sunray]

Lousy patterns out of two shotguns means it's the ammo. Change ammo and lose the full choke. IC or modified at most.
"...having someone else shoot the gun..." That won't change the pattern.

 

[Maverick223]

However, I'm not aware of any #1 loads that use a cup. You'll probably have to get 00.

Winchester No. 1 has a shot cup and buffering. I use a cylinder bore scattergun and it patterned well for me (for my use, at about 20yds).

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

I have seen the circular pattern with 18 inch improved cylinder riot guns ,numerous times. Usually with Remington or Winchester buckshot. Federal buckshot patterns the best and rarely makes a donut pattern. I've never tried to pattern a full choke gun with buckshot so I don't have a clue as to whats normal for that setup. Did I miss something? I didn't see anything about a rifled barrel.

+1 on the Federal buckshot, that stuff patterns really tight. I was shooting dynamit nobel 00 10 pellet the other day and the shot was going all around the poster sized target at 25+ yds. Federal actually patterned.

 

[4sooth]

In the eighties Chuck Taylor, in an article for Soldier of Fortune magazine, wrote of the "doughtnut" phenomenon when shooting buckshot through cylinder bore short barrel shotguns. The results of his testing were VERY controversial. With a variety of buckshot and using 18-20 inch barrel Remington 870's which were(and still are) commonly issued to many police officers, he found many gun/ammo combinations which would not keep all 9 pellets in a 00 buck load in the chest of a humanoid target at ranges as close as 15 yards!

Being intrigued by this I spent several hundred dollars and lots of time experimenting with an 870/20 inch barrel/screw-in chokes and a Rem. 1100, 20 inch barrel/screw-in chokes and a Browning A-5, with a 30 inch full choke barrel.

My results mirrored his. With cyl. chokes both Rem's. would not consistently keep all 9 pellets on a humanoid target at 15 yards. This would limit the self defense use to under 40 feet to assure all the pellets struck the target and did not go down the street to injure someone else.

Going through 12 diff. chokes, I found one mod. choke which produced 10-12 inch paterns at 30 yards CONSISTENTLY but with only a single brand and lot number of buckshot. Changing lot number frequently brought about larger/less uniform groups in the same gun/same choke. This is common among shotguns. Your gun WILL BE DIFFERENT so experiment with brands/chokes. When you find what your gun likes--try to buy the same lot number so the groups will be repeatable.

Federal was just bringing out the buffered/plated buckshot at that time. Later I did shoot some of this and it generally gives very even pellet distribution--only rarely producing the "doughnut" groups. However the most CONSISTENT buckshot I've used has been Winchester Super-X 9 pellet 00(un-plated) in the standard velocity. With mod. chokes I get (in my guns) 9-10 inch patterns at 25 yards on a regular basis.

 

[RebelRabbi]

Winchester 00 Buck UNplated 2 3/4 is your ticket. If the gun won't do better with the winchester, get rid of it. Preferably give it to someone who can't afford to buy a gun of thier own.