I recently acquired a .410 (Rem. Wingmaster) and intend to use it for this years dove shooting (if we have any). I realize a .410 is an experts gun, and though I may not be an expert, I'm certainly no rookie, and use Wingmasters of other gauges (12,16,20) extensively, so I think I can tag a few doves with the .410. The question from one who has never dealt with the .410 is should I use the 2 1/2" 1/2 ounce loads or go with the 3" 11/16 ounce loads--and why? This will basically be pass shooting as the birds come into water. I'm thinking the 3" 11/16 ounce because we don't get many really close shots, but I may be all wet. The last few years I've used 20 gauge doing OK, most of the other guys use 12 gauge because that's what they have. I'm thinking the 2 1/2" 1/2 ounce loads may just be too light. The input you .410 experienced folks give will be appreciated.
Dove loads--Please advise
- Thread starter moosehunt
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I'm not an experienced .410 guy. However, shotguns are shotguns. 7 1/2 shot is 7 1/2 shot, whether it comes from a .410 or a punt gun.
Pellets hit doves one at a time. Even with a 12 Gauge, only a few pellets hit the bird once you're past a few yards. There's really no such thing as a load that's "too light."
Note that the .410 payload is about half what you'd shoot in a 12 Gauge. That's really not bad; there are plenty of pellets out there if you're used to the gun. 8 shot has 410 pellets per ounce. 1/2 ounce still contains 205 pellets in the pattern; 11/16 contains 282 pellets. You ought to be able to kill a dove with 200-280 pellets, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell
The real difference is that you might need a Full choke to get the same shot density going through the air as you can get with an Improved Cylinder choke in a 12 Gauge. That makes the .410 pattern smaller, so there's less slop: you have to hit the bird with the .410, not just rely on the bird intercepting your big cloud of shot from an open-choked 12 Gauge.
11/16 oz. through that little bore will give a pretty long shot string, especially if you use a tight choke (which you'll have to for long shots). But is that bad? Probably not. You might be able to open up the choke a bit with a bit more shot.
I'd pattern both rounds, and see which one patterns more consistently. The 1/2 oz. load probably will, but maybe there won't be much difference.
Then, go shoot some clays with the gun. That will give you the best feel for what it takes to get a few pellets on target at a given range, IMO.
If you can, set up a thrower, or find a clays range, with overhead passing shots, if that's what you plan on shooting. You may find that the gun is "magic."
Also, experiment with 8 vs. 7 1/2 shot and clays farther out. It's a tradeoff between pattern density (8 is better) and retained energy (7 1/2 is better). 8 slows down sooner; 7 1/2 has fewer pellets in the pattern.
Good luck! It should be fun.
Pellets hit doves one at a time. Even with a 12 Gauge, only a few pellets hit the bird once you're past a few yards. There's really no such thing as a load that's "too light."
Note that the .410 payload is about half what you'd shoot in a 12 Gauge. That's really not bad; there are plenty of pellets out there if you're used to the gun. 8 shot has 410 pellets per ounce. 1/2 ounce still contains 205 pellets in the pattern; 11/16 contains 282 pellets. You ought to be able to kill a dove with 200-280 pellets, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shellThe real difference is that you might need a Full choke to get the same shot density going through the air as you can get with an Improved Cylinder choke in a 12 Gauge. That makes the .410 pattern smaller, so there's less slop: you have to hit the bird with the .410, not just rely on the bird intercepting your big cloud of shot from an open-choked 12 Gauge.
11/16 oz. through that little bore will give a pretty long shot string, especially if you use a tight choke (which you'll have to for long shots). But is that bad? Probably not. You might be able to open up the choke a bit with a bit more shot.
I'd pattern both rounds, and see which one patterns more consistently. The 1/2 oz. load probably will, but maybe there won't be much difference.
Then, go shoot some clays with the gun. That will give you the best feel for what it takes to get a few pellets on target at a given range, IMO.
If you can, set up a thrower, or find a clays range, with overhead passing shots, if that's what you plan on shooting. You may find that the gun is "magic."
Also, experiment with 8 vs. 7 1/2 shot and clays farther out. It's a tradeoff between pattern density (8 is better) and retained energy (7 1/2 is better). 8 slows down sooner; 7 1/2 has fewer pellets in the pattern.
Good luck! It should be fun.
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oneounceload
member
For practice, try skeet over trap at your local club - 5-stand with tower shots even better. Pattern both loads to see what they will do in YOUR gun. If it has changeable chokes, try them as well. You're correct in that the 3410 is more of an expert's gun, so use high quality ammunition, not the cheap promo stuff if you can. If you can find target loads with 8 or 7-1/2's and not 9's they should work depending on the distance. I used to dove hunt with a few folks who ONLY used 410's - one was the Winchester lever-action - and they only used the standard 2-1/2 shells with #8 - they were handloads, but they sure did the job. I had trouble with my 20 compared to them
chas08
Member
I once had a Brazilian made 410 SxS choked Full/Full with double triggers that I could hold my own with anyone shooting a 12 ga, if I kept my shots inside thirty yards. I prefered 2 1/2 " # 8's.
Virginian
Member
I don't like .410 for game, but I think the 3" puts more pellets in the pattern. I use #7-1/2s with everything else, but with a .410 I use #8s, and a buddy uses #9s. The 2-1/2" is a more "efficient" load, but 70% of 205 is 144, whereas 60% of 282 is 169. Pattern your gun and then put some range markers out in the field in front of you to help.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Thanks, all good info. Mine is fixed choke, modified. Of course I'll pattern it, but I kind of want to decide which shells first--once I buy a box of these rediculously pricy shells, obviously that's what I'll be shooting, at least till they're gone. I'd love to shoot a little trap or skeet with it, but at 300+ miles one way to the closest oppertunity, it's probably not in the cards. (That has a lot to do with why I don't shoot competitive ATA anymore). I'm still listening guys!
Though I'm blessed with clays ranges down the street from my house, I have a Do-All Competitor in the garage. It's a $30 spring-loaded clay thrower available from Wal-Mart, Cabela's, and various sporting goods stores. It can throw doubles and singles, and if you have some dirt, you can use it.
The thing is simple, but it's been reliable.
I have a similar device for throwing tennis balls for my dog, from Hyper. It works well: http://www.lionscopetproducts.com/hyper-clay-disc-thrower.html is the version for throwing clay targets.
You can also get a hand thrower that looks kind of like a Chuckit tennis ball thrower (also for dogs) for a few bucks at the same places as the Competitor. If you have a shooting partner who can master it (throwing clays takes a few tries the first time IME), the thing works great, too. It's cheap, simple, and you can keep it under a car seat.
It's from another of the usual suspects: Champion Targets. http://www.championtarget.com/products/traps_targets/traps/SuperSportHandThrower.aspx
The thing is simple, but it's been reliable.
I have a similar device for throwing tennis balls for my dog, from Hyper. It works well: http://www.lionscopetproducts.com/hyper-clay-disc-thrower.html is the version for throwing clay targets.
You can also get a hand thrower that looks kind of like a Chuckit tennis ball thrower (also for dogs) for a few bucks at the same places as the Competitor. If you have a shooting partner who can master it (throwing clays takes a few tries the first time IME), the thing works great, too. It's cheap, simple, and you can keep it under a car seat.
It's from another of the usual suspects: Champion Targets. http://www.championtarget.com/products/traps_targets/traps/SuperSportHandThrower.aspx
plumberroy
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I kill crows with winchester AA's 2 1/2 inch #8 out of a H&R single shot full choke three crow with 3 shots the last time I shot They are beginning to realize flying over my property isn't safe. 
Roy
Roy
Bud Tugly
Member
I've never hunted doves (illegal here in Michigan, dang it) but I've shot a lot of grouse and rabbits with 3" #6 shot with a .410. Doves are a little smaller so 7 1/2 shot should work.
IMO it's best to learn to pass up on shots much over 30 yards or so for ethical hunting, since the pattern on most .410's thins out beyond that.
IMO it's best to learn to pass up on shots much over 30 yards or so for ethical hunting, since the pattern on most .410's thins out beyond that.
dagger dog
Member
I know this depends on how deep your pockets are but have you priced 3" .410 shells lately? Try $15 a box!
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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With 15-17% unemployment, I'd bet there's gonna be a few people up in Michigan shooting them for the pot, legal or not. Maybe now is a good time politically to push for making it legal, since you can make the "for the pot" necessity argument.
Snarlingiron
Member
Doves are fast flying and hard to hit. But they are tender. It only takes a couple of pellets to bring them down. Often when I find them, they are still alive. They usually only have 2 to 4 pellets in them.
The fast flying hard to hit part is what makes hunting them so danged much fun.
The fast flying hard to hit part is what makes hunting them so danged much fun.
MCgunner
Member
I learned with a JC Higgins .410 pump (mossberg). But, I moved on up to a 20 and have no real desire to go back to the .410. I might try a 28 someday. I like the price of 20 gauge shells better, though.
I knew this ol' fellow over on the poorer side of town. Went over there to visit him one day and was chattin'. Everyone called him "Wimp". He had the BBQ goin' with the lid down. Up comes this kid with a BB gun and a robin, says, "Here's ya another one uncle Wimp". And, he picks it as we chat, cleans it up, and puts it on the grill as he pulls a couple off the grill. ROFL! Man does what he's gotta do, I guess.
I knew this ol' fellow over on the poorer side of town. Went over there to visit him one day and was chattin'. Everyone called him "Wimp". He had the BBQ goin' with the lid down. Up comes this kid with a BB gun and a robin, says, "Here's ya another one uncle Wimp". And, he picks it as we chat, cleans it up, and puts it on the grill as he pulls a couple off the grill. ROFL! Man does what he's gotta do, I guess.
Virginian
Member
Take care. Down South we had a lot of field larks flying around when I was growing up. Acted a little like quail, but much more plentiful. So I got a bright idea, and I shot some and cleaned them, and told my Grandmother they were quail. She started cooking them and suddenly the whole house was filled with a horrible stench. She threw them out the back door, baking sheet and all, and gave me the devil for days, and I finally fessed up and promised no more experiments.
Bud Tugly
Member
Michigan had a state-wide ballot initiative to legalize dove hunting a few years back but it lost. The anti-hunters downstate made a bunch of TV ads showing how purty they are and turned the vote, even though the northern 2/3 of the state has a deep hunting tradition. There are zillions of the danged things around here, too.
About 90% of Michigan's population is concentrated in the southern 1/3 if the state. I lived down there for a few years and was sure glad to return to the wilds of the UP, but their politics drives the state.
Back when I was a kid there were a few elderly folks who would pay a penny or two for any songbirds we could bring them. We'd shoot them with our BB guns and they'd cook them up.
No doubt holdovers from the depression era, and hopefully not a forerunner of times to come.
About 90% of Michigan's population is concentrated in the southern 1/3 if the state. I lived down there for a few years and was sure glad to return to the wilds of the UP, but their politics drives the state.
Back when I was a kid there were a few elderly folks who would pay a penny or two for any songbirds we could bring them. We'd shoot them with our BB guns and they'd cook them up.
No doubt holdovers from the depression era, and hopefully not a forerunner of times to come.
Oh, I well realize the price of .410's is ridiculous, but the 3" are only about $1.75 more than the 2 1/2"--approx. $10 vs $11.80. I'm not really out to kill a lot, hell, the limits only 10, I guess I just want to kill what I hit. From what I've read here, I'm thinking the 2 1/2"er's now--note that my initial thoughts were toward the 3"er's. Cost isn't the factor. If I were to go for meat, I reckon I'd go for the 20 (or the 12?), but doves, meat? that doesn't really compute--don't get me wrong, the bite per is great and enjoyed, but even with a 20, if you ran 50% (damn good!), I don't think the meat production would be very economical! For well over 50 years I've enjoyed shooting doves and enjoyed the eats, but the groceries are gravey--it's the shooting fun that makes dove hunting. The .410 is just going to add challenge and grins--I know the kill percentage will drop. If I do any good on the doves, I may try it (the .410) on quail--providing we have any. They've been way down here for the past 2 years.
Cheers, guys. Thanks for the input.
Cheers, guys. Thanks for the input.
Gungle George
Member
Moose, what ever load you decide to use..........................take LOTS
Cheers,
Gungle George
Cheers,
Gungle George
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