Dragoon Question

[Bullwinkle]

This BP forum is an excellent source for information! Thanks to you all for helping out us newcomers.

I went to a local gun shop last week and was loking at the Uberti 1858 NMA, but they had two used Dragoons there. I think one was a 1st or 2nd model and the other was a 3rd model because of the rounded trigger guard. Both looked like they were in decent shape. They fit and felt much better in my hand than the NMA.

Here's the question- One of them was clearly marked that it was made by ASM, but the other one bore no manufacturer's name. I'd like to steer clear of the ASM one. Is there a way to determine who made this other one? An engraved emblem perhaps or S/N?

 

[mykeal]

It's possible that the other Dragoon was 'defarbed' by some previous owner who wanted to pretend it was an original or use it in a reenactment and not be subject to the thread count nazis.

There should be a manufacturer's stamp and two proof marks on the frame, either the side above the trigger guard or on the bottom of the frame ahead of the trigger guard. The same stamps should be on the barrel assembly; they're often under the loading lever near the breech end. The two proof marks should also be on the cylinder.

The proof marks will be: 1) the capital letters PN under a five point star; the star is surrounded by a wreath device, and 2) a square shield with two crossed rifles inside under that same star/wreath device.

The serial number will be of no use in determining who the manufacturer was.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Thanks, mykeal! I'll check it out again and see what marks there might be there.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Thread count

Nazi's , now thats funny And true , they do exhist

Jaeger

 

[Bullwinkle]

Well, I finally got back to the gun shop and looked more closely at this 3rd Model. The
barrel had the name of some manufacturing company in NY, but it also had the Italian proof marks on it.

There was an "AC" within a circle and thanks to another THR post this means it was made by Armi Sport. How do they compare to Uberti or other manufacturers? Will parts be interchangeable?

The shop is asking $275 and looks like it's in decent shape. It's tempting.....

 

[arcticap]

There's a different meaning for an "AC" within a circle than "AC" within a box.

Within the circle it's the trade mark for Armi Sport a.k.a. Armi Chiappa.

Within a box it stands for the date code as being made in 1977.

I wasn't aware that Armi Sport ever made a dragoon, only single shot pistols.
Double check the marking to be sure because it very well could be an unmarked Armi San Marco. That manufacturing company in New York, did it say Colt? I believe that ASM did mark guns as if they were made by the original Colt Co. in New York.

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPProofmarks.pdf

 

[madcratebuilder]

What arcticap said. Armi Sport makes high quality reproductions of rifles and carbines.

Check the proof marks again and if you can get the full address off the top the barrel that would help. Look under the loading lever for a trademark or name.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Well, somehow my last post didn't go through. Anyway, I went back to the shop today
with magnifying glass pad and pen. Some info from the previous post was incorrect.

Here's what I saw:
1. Barrel is marked "Sile Distributors Inc. - New York. It also says made in Italy.
2. Frame and barrel have typical PN and other proof marks.
3. Near the triggerguard there is an "AD" engraved inside of a square box. (Made 1978?)
4. The S/N has four digits beginning with a 6 and is marked on several places.
5. There are no engravings under the loading lever.
6. Cylinder is engraved and marked "WLO rms hysc ny" as best as I could tell.

I've read that Sile was an importer of Italian arms. Does that mean this was probably
made by ASM? Is it worth it?

They also had a 2nd Model Dragoon but it was clearly stamped ASM on the barrel.

 

[arcticap]

Is it worth it?

Mark Twain Quotes: Excerpt from Letter 23

San Francisco Alta California, July 28, 1867

New York,
May 28th, 1867.

ACADEMY OF DESIGN

EDITORS ALTA: I am thankful that the good God creates us all ignorant. I am glad that when we change His plans in this regard, we have to do it at our own risk. It is a gratification to me to know that I am ignorant of art, and ignorant also of surgery. Because people who understand art find nothing in pictures but blemishes, and surgeons and anatomists see no beautiful women in all their lives, but only a ghastly stack of bones with Latin names to them, and a network of nerves and muscles and tissues inflamed by disease. The very point in a picture that fascinates me with its beauty, is to the cultured artist a monstrous crime against the laws of coloring; and the very flush that charms me in a lovely face, is, to the critical surgeon, nothing but a sign hung out to advertise a decaying lung. Accursed be all such knowledge. I want none of it....

http://www.twainquotes.com/18670728.html

 

[mykeal]

Arcticap - thank you once again. Alas, I've forgotten far too much of Sam's good work. I need to fix that right away.

 

[madcratebuilder]

SILE distributors imported Invest Arms brand and D Pedersoli brand until 1999.
My blue book does not list a Dragoon but it does list a 1860 and a 1858. The current NIB price for the 1860 is $100 and the 1858 is $135. That should tell you something.

I would pass on the SILE.

I'm pleased with the two ASM's I have. YMMV

 

[Bullwinkle]

Thanks for the info madcratebuilder! I think I'll go back to the NMA and wait for a Cabela's sale on a new one.

In the meantime, a used T/C New Englander 50 cal is heading my way this week.

 

[BHP FAN]

ASM's have a undeserved bad reputation.For years they made high quality guns,then the last year or so of production the QC started to slip,and it's from those last few that they get the bad rap.Don't worry about parts,although Pietta parts will not fit [at least not without minor gunsmithing and major cussing] Uberti parts mostly drop right in,with very little hand fitting needed.VTI got the last of the ASM factory parts,but only odds and ends,not a complete inventory.Check with them,if you decide to get this gun,and want any back up parts.

 

[mykeal]

Sometimes, but not always.

 

[BHP FAN]

exactly.

 

[madcratebuilder]

ASM's have a undeserved bad reputation.

I agree 100%. I have worked on a couple of them, Pietta parts appear to interchange OK. The two I shoot are good revolvers. I really like my 62 police. I have personally had more issues with my Uberti's than any other Italian manufacturer.

 

[bprevolver]

Bullwinkle, SILE was a NY distributor that marked their guns. They purchased from several manufacturers including Armi San Paolo and Armi San Marco. The Invest Arms were mainly rifles, but they did make some brass frame revolvers. I have only seen a half dozen "SILE" marked revolvers in 15 yrs. The first was a Walker that I missed buying. I bought three others: Stainless Remington New Model Army(ASP), Griswold & Gunnison(DOM), and Schneider & Glassick(DOM). DOM is a manufacturer that I never been able to identify. I have never seen a Dragoon marked SILE. These are collectible. I would pay the $275 instantly if I had come across it. Only two Italian manufacturers produced the 1847 Walker and Dragoons, first Armi San Marco and then Uberti. Supposedly Palmetto also made these but to date none of these have surfaced. Of course Colt also produced the big frame revolvers using Uberti parts, and evidence has surfaced that they also used Armi San Marco parts as well.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

dragoons

Back when there was a furor into black powder in the late 1960's and early 1970's, many of the Italian Manufacturers offerred their wares to a wide variety of discount stores, gun companies, and mail order outfits. Depending on what the retailer wanted, the Italian manufacturer offerred several different levels of quality control. TopLine Company may have gotten 1,000 of the $139.00 quality, while Sears may have ordered 10,000 of the $79.00 quality and Two Guys From Harrison may have ordered 100,000 of the 37.00 bare bones crappy quality. Same manufacturer, same production line, steel frame, brass frame, hot blued, cold blued, in the white, kit, rough machined, or honed and polished, better or worse fit and finish and customer markings. But I think regardless, Italian law required the proof marks and name of manufacturer on each piece. I have seen some pure crap with the name Palmetto Arms on it, and some really nice first rate precision stuff, with the same name, same for ASM, and a few others. For a while in the early 1960's the centenniel of the Civil War sparked interest in the repro revolvers. Then in the late 1960's and 1970's, the exchange rate was cheap and American distributors purchased huge lots of various qualities. The italians, were still hungry for industry and manufacturing jobs and vied for larger market shares of the repro market. They would sell to anyone at the price and quality the customer desired. Thankfully, there are a few companies in Italy with minimum standards. Such as Pedersoli and Uberti. Some body is still cranking out cheap junk for Traditions and a few other importers.

I recently looked up the web site for Siber Hege firearms. Apparently made in Germany, top quality stuff at quite remarkable prices. Those high prices have resulted in few making it to the US.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Of course Colt also produced the big frame revolvers using Uberti parts, and evidence has surfaced that they also used Armi San Marco parts as well.

Can you point me to any documentation about the use of ASM parts in 2nd or 3rd Gen Colts?

AFAIK Uberti supplied raw barrels and cylinders.