Dragoon questions

[DougB]

I'm thinking of getting a reproduction Dragoon (probably Uberti - I don't see Piettas available), but I have a few questions that I haven't found answered in previous threads about these revolvers. One reason I'm considering a Dragoon is that I'm going to participate a pioneer reenactment (handcart trek) with my (Mormon) church's youth group this summer. We are trying to be as authentic as practical, and I'd like to bring along a revolver that's appropriate to the period (mid-late 1850s). I have a Pietta 1860 Army I like a lot, and that would be easier to pack, but it is pushing the envelope in period-correctness. I understand that the 1858 Remingtons are also really 1860s guns. Not that anyone but me would know the difference - but if I can use this to rationalize the purchase of another revolver, why not be a stickler .

1) Is there any significant functional benefit to the later models? I like the look of the squared off trigger guards of the 1st and 2nd models (more unique looking), but I'd go for the third model if it will shoot better, last longer, or have other significant functional/design advantages. Bear in mind that I'm asking about the Uberti replicas, not the originals. I get the impression that the reproductions may be virtually the same except for cosmetics. I'm leaning toward the 2nd model.

2) How practical are these to carry? I've carried a Ruger Super Blackhawk that weighs, I think, about 3 lbs, but these are about a pound more. I'm wondering what it will be like to carry one in a belt holster on a hike.

3) Where could I find the best deal on a Dragoon? Cabelas doesn't appear to carry this model (they seem to generally have the best prices on what they carry).

4) Where can I get a reasonably prices, reasonably authentic holster for this?

Any other thoughts on this? I thought about a 51 Navy, but I understand that the originals were only made in .36 caliber, and I'd prefer a .44.

Thanks

Doug

 

[Old Fuff]

The Dragoons were intended to be carried in saddle holsters. At the time they were called "holster pistols" in this context, where the lighter 1851 Navy was a "belt pistol" although they were also carried in saddle holsters on occasion. This brings up a question... are you going to hike on this trek or either ride in a wagon or on horseback? If you walk with a Dragoon revolver on your belt you'll soon know it.

They are also a heavy gun to lift and shoot - especially one handed, but if you have one it will attract a lot of attention.

From a mechanical point of view, the 1st model Dragoon is closer to the Walker, The 2nd and 3rd models were identical except for the ovel vs. squareback trigger guards. Your choice of a 2nd. model would be both correct and wise.

As for a source - I would recommend Cimarron Fireams (www.cimarron-firearms.com). Their products are a bit more expensive, but they are intended for serious shooters.

As a rule of thumb, Dragoons cost more then an equally correct squareback 1851 Navy from a historical perspective. Given the weight and extra expense of buying a Dragoon you might consider the Navy as an option.

When Dragoons were carried on a belt, most holsters were of the full-flap or half-flap style. Protecting the revolver from the elements was considered far more important then a quick draw. The same can be said about the 1851 Navy. I'll have to look up some makers.

 

[J.T. Gerrity]

Main reason to avoid the first model is that they use the same oval bolt/cylinder stop used in the Walkers. I personally prefer the later rectangular stop with lead-in groove that Colt eventually went with on all their guns. These "horse pistols" do get heavy after a while, but they sure are fun to shoot and are guaranteed to draw a crowd. You can get a flap holster (left hand reverse draw in you really want to be PC) for one of these monsters from Dixie Gun Works.

 

[colonialrob]

2nd Model Dragoon

Even though the heading says 2nd Model, right now Texas Jack's, a separate retail venture, I believe, of the owner of Cimarron, has the Cimarron 1st Model Dragoon (squareback trigger guard, oval grooves in cylinder) on sale for $289.00. It usually goes for $349.00 if a Cimarron product, or $315.00 for his non-Cimarron Uberti. Plus, his R & D Dragoon conversion cylinder is on sale for $209. (usually about $240. or so). Texas Jack also sells a very good quality holster fitted for the Dragoons for about $69.00. You need to be sure the holster specifies it will fit the Dragoon, as opposed to only specified as for '51, '60 and '58 C&Bs.

I have all of the above, i.e., a 2nd Model Dragoon with the conversion cylinder and the holster and they are all fantastic quality and absolutely fun to carry and shoot. That big .45 Long Colt cartridge going off is worth every penny of the cost of the whole outfit. Be sure you are using either black powder cartridges or 'Cowboy' loads in the cylinder.

You can occasionally find the 2nd Model on sale somewhere, but I wouldn't count on the price going down overall in the near future. Not until the dollar/euro ratio gets a heck of a lot better.

As to carrying the Dragoon on a hike, it obviously would get heavy, but the correct holster and a good belt should make it OK for all but the most extended duration. And for some reason, carrying mine cross-draw seems to aleviate some of the weight sensation.

Once you own a Dragoon, the rest are your backup toys.

colonialrob

 

[mec]

not too much difference

any of the dragoons would be correct for the period. they were a standard arm of the United states mounted rifles some of whom were detached along the oregon trail. Some deserted for california during the gold rush and took the revolvers with them. The dragoon developed rather quickly and the 3rd model was in by about 1850

 

[mykeal]

Buy the 2nd model...

With regard to period authenticity, I own both a 2nd and 3rd model Dragoon:



plus an 1851 Navy:



I've carried the 2nd Dragoon and the Navy in belt holsters for long periods (all day, several times). The Dragoon was carried in a cross draw full flap holster and the Navy in a strong side hip open top holster. The key is a VERY strong, thick gunbelt. The Dragoon will absolutely overwhelm any regular gunbelt and become quite a bother.

The Dragoon is more fun to shoot and show off. The Navy is better from a comfort and ease of shooting standpoint.

I once upon a time took the Dragoon to a local outdoor range; there was a woman and a young (10-12) year old boy two places down from me shooting a .22 semiauto, plus a couple of other handgunners at othe places shooting large bore. I put one cylinder through the Dragoon, slowly, about 15 20 seconds between shots to give the smoke time to clear. Then, why I don't know, I decided to see how fast I could empty the gun. Six shots as fast as I could cock and fire, probably in about 4-5 seconds. The woman broke and ran. The kid cheered. The range officer laughed and then said in his best voice of authority, "Don't you EVER do that again!" The range was shut down for 5 minutes by the smoke because nobody could see the targets. The kid came over and asked what I was shooting, so I showed it to him. Sometime later, on another day, and with his father at the range I let him shoot it. I'm sure he's still shooting BP. The Dragoon is just plain cool.

 

[BigG]

I bought this 3rd Model Colt Signature Series just as a display piece. It is as nice a revolver as ever was produced, imho. The finish is flawless.

 

[mykeal]

Big G - Superb picture of a fine weapon. Well done.

Doug B -

Cimmaron's 1st and 2nd Models are $349, the 3rd model is $357. As ColonialRob, said, Texas Jack's, available through Cimmaron's site, has the Cimmaron 1st Model on sale for $289.
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/BlkPowder/BlkPowderOpener.htm
http://www.texasjacks.com/SuperSales/CartGuns/SS-PercussionGuns.htm

Deer Creek Products has the 3rd Model listed on page 30 of their 2007 catalog for $229, with a note that "Prices may change without notice." I don't know who makes the Deer Creek pistol. They do not have a web site or email address, so you have to call directly at 765-525-6181.

Dixie Gun Works has the full flap holster available for $40.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=hL0401&x=9&y=8

S&S Firearms: 1st Model and 2nd Model Uberti's for $270, 3rd Model Uberti for $275. You have to download the catalog and read it with Adobe Acrobat.
http://www.ssfirearms.com/download catalog.htm

Taylor's Firearms: 1st and 2nd Models for $315, 3rd Model for $340, again I don't know who the manufacturer is.
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/bpDragoons.tpl

The Possible Shop: 1st & 2nd Models by Uberti for $305, 3rd Model by Uberti for $315.
http://www.possibleshop.com/uberti.htm

Thunder Ridge: 1st and 2nd Models by Uberti for $315, 3rd Model by Uberti for $340.
http://thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/revolvers.htm#walker

That's about all I have info on at this time. Hope it helps.

 

[DougB]

Guys,

Thank you all so much for all the detailed information and photos - you've generously answered all my questions in great detail. It sounds like a 2nd model Dragoon would be the way for me to go, with a holster from Dixie. I'll check out the sources you mentioned. I'm still a little hesitant about carrying this on our "trek" (probably hiking for a few miles a day - and possibly helping to push a handcart full of gear). If not for my preference for a .44, I'd probably go for an 1851 Navy for carrying ease and the octagon barrel, but whether I carry it on the trek or not, your photos and descriptions have convinced me that sooner or later I'm going to have to get one of these Dragoons.

Thanks again

Doug

 

[J.T. Gerrity]

Doug
Look at it this way... knowing how this hobby goes, you'll end up owning a '51 Navy (and a '60 Army and a '58 Remmie and a Walker etc.) anyway, so it just depends on what you want to get first! Could be you could get the Navy for your re-enactment, knowing that you'll get the Dragoon later. I don't know anyone who has just one BP gun. Once you try it you'll be hooked, I guarantee!

 

[DixieTexian]

If you plan on carrying it and don't have a wide enough belt, look for some belt blanks on the Tandy Leather website.
http://www.tandyleather.com/
You can get belt blanks for pretty cheap there. You have to trim them to fit and punch hole and supply your own buckle, but it will make a god strong belt.

 

[mike101]

That Sig. Series Dragoon is beautiful! I never saw one with a fluted cylinder before. Great picture.

 

[Old Fuff]

DougB:

As a mater of history, I think very few Dragoons went west on the Great Trek. As handguns go they were very expensive, and most of the "trekers" were not rich. What money they had for firearms was most likely spent on a rifle or shotgun, particularly the latter, which could be loaded with birdshot, buck, or ball - depending on the situation. As for handguns, pepperboxes were popular, as were single-shot percussion pistols of various sizes.

After they arrived in Utah and got settled, and were better off financially is when Colt revolvers of all sizes came into the picture.

And as for the ones that did have big pistols, including Colt Dragoons - I'd bet that those heavy handguns traveled in the cart, not on the belt...

Anyway, good luck with your reenactment...

 

[mec]

They got to California pretty early. Some USMR troops decided to abscound from the Oregon Trail and head for the Gold Rush. Charlie Parkhurst carried a dragoon on her freight wagon. ( Charlie was a cross dresser and nobody knew she was a girl until post mortem.) She killed a couple of bandits with hers.
Joaquin Murrieta carried a whole bunch of them- or so they say.

 

[colonialrob]

Mec

There is some question as to the authenticity of the Murietta legends, but he was credited with carrying at least a "brace" of Dragoons.

Actually, many, if not most, of the early sensationalist western writers liked to give their heroes Dragoons; it just sounded studly. Even Louis Lamour often had his characters carrying two "Dragoon .44s", (I know Dragoons were all .44s, but there again, it just sounds great saying it that way), and using them often. Can you imagine carrying TWO Dragoons in a belt holster. And trying to draw them quickly? I'm guessing not many people carried them in holsters on their belt. But it does make a great image!

Colonialbob

 

[mec]

There are some questions about the authenticity of Murietta, himself.
There is a picture floading around on the web of RIP Ford wearing a pair of revolvers in half-flap holsters. these are usually identified as Walkers and they do look pretty big. I suspect the old boy had to wear two of them to keep from tipping over.

 

[Tommygunn]

I suspect the old boy had to wear two of them to keep from tipping over.

Yeah, but wearing two would make it hard to keep one's knees straight!

 

[mec]

here it is

 

[colonialrob]

Great picture. Thanks.

I have been doing some reading on the Texas Rangers' history, and Ford was one of the characters mentioned often. That nickname "Rip" was for "Rest In Peace", for likely obvious reasons.

The gun stocks in the picture could certainly be Dragoons. That sure is a narrow belt holding everything up! And it looks like one of the local CAS members.

 

[DixieTexian]

I was just looking at that picture last night while I was reading a book on the Texas Rangers. I was figuring they had to at least be dragoons by the size of them.

 

[Cuda]

I don't have any first hand knowledge of the Dragoon but they are fine looking guns.

Good luck with whatever you choose have fun and be safe.

C

 

[Old Fuff]

There is some argument about the revolvers. Some claim they are Walkers (and he did have a pair) based on the time frame when the photograph was supposedly taken. It is known from written accounts that he sometimes "belted" a pair of them.

On the other hand some authorities say they are Dragoons.

In any case they aren't Pocket Models ...

 

[mec]

One version says he wrote "rest in peace" at the bottom of letters he wrote to the families of deceased soldiers. another says he whispered "requisquat en pas." every time he shot somebody.

He lived from 1815 until 1897 and probably had a whole bunch of guns. everybody would like to believe those are walkers in the picture. I have seen a half flap walker holster in an auction catalog.

One of his projects was to get an order of fluetted 1860 armies smuggled into texas just before the Civil War. a bit before that, he was trying to set up a country in Northern Mexico friendly to slavery and the south.