Draw to fire time

[loop]

When I worked training police to shoot a number of years ago we had a drill we put everyone through that I have since tried to get my IDPA club to do at least once every three months.

Using a standard IDPA-style target we would have each person draw from an open holster and fire one round that had to hit center mass.
The second part was draw from concealment and hit center mass.
The third part was hold the gun aimed at center mass and fire.

We used a standard competition timer to test each shot.

Most people were in the 1.5-second range on drawing from an open holster and little slower (about 1.7) from concealment. The fastest time was a .4-something from open holster and concealment (fired by a DEA guy who worked undercover).

The average for the already aimed gun was about .35. One guy had a .1-something.

With the police we made them repeat the drill until they were under 1.5 from a holster and under.5 aimed. In IDPA we issue a 10-second penalty for a shot that isn't in the center ring.

My times from open holster are about .7; concealment .75 and aimed .28; for my current carry gun.

I'm curious if anyone on the board has timed themselves on their draw to accurate aimed fire. If so, what are your times and do you practice this on a regular basis?

I practice a fair amount, but still consider myself pretty slow.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I've been using a timer for a little while. It's an eye opener.

Due to the smallish backstop in my backyard range I don't draw from the holster but start with the gun lowered.
I have a self imposed accuracy level of 4x6 inches at any distance. A hit out of center disqualifies the whole target. This is causing my times to be a little high. I may start using the 6x7 inch white center of my targets as an acceptable COM hit to see if I can get the times down.

This is some examples of where I'm at now.
It's very enjoyable shooting against the clock.









This is single shots from the holster, fired on my rifle range. As you can see I'm trading too much time for accuracy. I believe I'll begin using COM as minimum acceptable accuracy.

 

[loop]

I've been practicing against a clock for about 10 years. It is a real eye-opener. M2, yours are really above average. You are doing very well.
It ain't easy, is it?
But, since the clock doesn't lie and neither do the holes on paper it teaches you a lot.
I never knew how slow I really am until I went up against a clock. My safe distance is down to about 16-17 feet.
COM is only way to go. It's amazing how long it actually takes to bring a sidearm into play.
It takes a lot out of the macho in carrying a gun. LOL
TY M2.
Love the clock. Makes us honest.

 

[zeroskillz]

Another interesting drill is to have another person stand with their back to the shooters back. At the buzzer, the other person runs away from the shooter and drops something when the shot goes off. (remember, they're facing in opposite directions). Then you can turn around and see how far away someone can be and still get to you before you can get a shot off.

Kind of sobering.

 

[Cougfan2]

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.

 

[M2 Carbine]

zeroskillz
Another interesting drill is to have another person stand with their back to the shooters back. At the buzzer, the other person runs away from the shooter and drops something when the shot goes off. (remember, they're facing in opposite directions). Then you can turn around and see how far away someone can be and still get to you before you can get a shot off.

Kind of sobering.

Now that's really interesting.
I have to try that.

loop I've been practicing against a clock for about 10 years. It is a real eye-opener. M2, yours are really above average. You are doing very well.
It ain't easy, is it?
But, since the clock doesn't lie and neither do the holes on paper it teaches you a lot.
I never knew how slow I really am until I went up against a clock. My safe distance is down to about 16-17 feet.
COM is only way to go. It's amazing how long it actually takes to bring a sidearm into play.
It takes a lot out of the macho in carrying a gun. LOL
TY M2.
Love the clock. Makes us honest.

Thanks, I don't know what is considered a good time, so have been shooting for everything being under a second a shot. Which I can't do and maintain the self imposed accuracy level. My targets are printed on 8.5x11 inch paper and the white body area is about 6x7 inches. I think I'll start calling hits in that area good COM hits and see if I can chop off a half second or so.
Being 70 I know I can't expect too much out of my reactions any more but it's fun trying.

 

[NCHornet]

I always been told under 2 sec drawn from hands above the head and holster in OWB strong side. I always thought that was funny as who walks around with their hands in the air. I think timing may be going a bit far, so don't get hung up on times, what you should worry about is a smooth draw in a timely manner. Remember in this drill you are expecting to draw and fire, this won't be so in a real SD situation. Again situational awareness, and being able to draw while concealed in a smooth manner is the most im portant, even if it takes an extra 1/2 a sec. Just my opinion you train how you feel is best for you.
NCH

 

[MrBorland]

I just started working on timed fire from a holster. And I mean just (yes, it's been very humbling). I don't even have a timer yet; fortunately, I found the link below, and I can practice for free at home. For those who want to give it a whirl but don't have a timer, check it out:

http://mattburkett.com/files/flashfiles/dryfiredraw.html

As far as my actual times, I don't think it counts here, since I've only been dry firing. It's main benefit seems to be to aid repetition, develop smoothness and monitor progress.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I think timing may be going a bit far, so don't get hung up on times, what you should worry about is a smooth draw in a timely manner.

For my part, trying to reduce the time you can draw and accurately shoot is just another part of shooting, just like practicing weak hand shooting, distance shooting, etc. It's not necessarily more or less important than any other practice but IMO a shooter should be well rounded in not only the things that are likely to happen but in the things that don't happen that often.
Personally (and mostly because I have the place to do it and it's fun) I try to be reasonably decent in most any shooting that comes to mind.


Sometimes speed can be very important.
Like the old warning sign,
"If you can read this sign you had better be able to make it to that fence in 8 seconds because my German Shepard can make it in 9."

 

[hso]

Yes

We also train people to draw and fire from an open holster. In a two day training session we get typical times of 1 to .8 seconds from the holster to a hole in the 10 ring at defensive distances (3-12 ft.). We had one lady last year that by Sunday could draw and run a failure drill in under one second with a compact 9mm XD. She was a mom of a 3 year old and hadn't touched her gun in almost a year since when she took the course the first time. The instructor and I just stood in amazement with our mouths open as she did it again and again.

 

[M2 Carbine]

We had one lady last year that by Sunday could draw and run a failure drill in under one second with a compact 9mm XD

Some people's reactions are amazingly fast.

In 1956 I was in the USMC with a fellow of German decent from Venezuela. The son of one of the German SS probably, but I never asked.

He had a thing about quick drawing with a Western rig and was FAST.
We would have a contest, which I and others always lost.

I would point a (of course well inspected) pistol at him and try to shoot before he could draw and shoot. I tried every way I could to beat him, watching hie eyes, gun hand, etc but I could never pull the trigger faster than he could draw and fire. I never saw anyone beat him.

 

[AZAndy]

I can draw and fire my 1911 from concealment in just about a second if using a metronome. With a shot timer, my sloooow reaction to the random start buzzer takes it up to 1.3 at best. I need more practice.

I've thought about timing a P32 draw from my pocket holster, but I'm kinda scared to see how bad that would be. ;-)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

But, since the clock doesn't lie and neither do the holes on paper it teaches you a lot.
I never knew how slow I really am until I went up against a clock. My safe distance is down to about 16-17 feet.
COM is only way to go. It's amazing how long it actually takes to bring a sidearm into play.
It takes a lot out of the macho in carrying a gun.

Clocks and targets don't lie, but they don't tell the truth either. They are just data.

If y'all's purpose of timing the draw to first shot time is meant as a self defense training tool, then let me stress that these really good times being posted probably are not a good reflection of real life.

In testing these with several shooters performing Mozambique drills over several weeks (one session per week), we found that the shooters were about 25-50% faster after they warmed up and had much better accuracy.

The comparison was against 1 cold draw and fire Mozambique at the start of each session from a distance of 7 yards. We used an IDPA target for measuring accuracy. Basically, you had to put both COM shots in the chest circle and then hit anywhere on the head.

When a shooter arrived at the range, we had the shooter put on muffs and glasses and proceed to the firing line for the drill. All shots were done with the shooter's carry ammo and without any sort of adjustment, practice draws, primping, or anything else. The idea was that it was as close to possible to being surprised into action in real life where you don't get to rock your pistol to the perfect cant, retuck your shirt so that it doesn't snag you during the draw, or take things out of the pockets of your concealment garment.

What we found is that people who could shoot the Mozambique cleanly from 7 yards while drawing from concealment inside of 2 seconds after warming up were not accomplishing it cleanly in 2.5-2.8 seconds with a cold draw. Usually, 1 shot was out of the intended zones, but sometimes two.

Why didn't the shooters do better? There were many reasons. First was that their skills after being warmed up really were considerably better than their cold skills. Except in rare instances, people who get into civilian gunfights are shooting cold. A contibuting factor was in the interference of clothing - usually shirts that were untucked during normal wear and were grabbed during the draw, but sometimes a problem with the concealment garment. I found that I have some vests that are fine for the range, but not fine to wear on the street.

If you are interested in knowing what a more realistic estimate is of your ability to perform on the street, then set up a standard cold draw and fire drill to repeat with each new range session and shoot the drill without all the gun/holster/magazine primping that goes on during normal range sessions or before IDPA matches. And shoot 1-3 rounds of your carry ammo as well since that is what you will be using in real life. It is a good way to cycle through some of your carry ammo (for those of you who like to change it regularly).

Note that I am not claiming that this drill represents how you can perform in real life, only that it adds the cold shoot aspect in actually assessing your skills as they might be in real life. I don't personally count on being able to do better than my cold shoot assessments. I might get lucky, but I am not counting on it.

 

[M2 Carbine]

When a shooter arrived at the range, we had the shooter put on muffs and glasses and proceed to the firing line for the drill.

Another good timed drill I can work on.

Now much of my timed shooting is cold. I have a backyard range and mostly just grab a gun, sometimes several times a day, and am shooting as fast as I load a couple magazines.
Offhand, it seems to me that I'm just the opposite. I think I get worse the more I shoot. Good point, I'll have to pay attention to that.

AZAndy I've thought about timing a P32 draw from my pocket holster, but I'm kinda scared to see how bad that would be. ;-)

You might suprise yourself.
I walked up to the target the other evening, like Double Naught Spy was talking about, and timed the P3AT from my front pocket. I was cheating though. The gun has a ARMA laser.

 

[loop]

Typically when I've been able to set up the drill we don't let anyone know what the course of fire is going to be. It requires an extra RO so people can't preen for it.
They don't know what the drill is until they reach the firing line. Then they can do whatever they think is best in the five seconds they have to plan for it.
But the truth is times are usually horrid.
If I faced off with a guy with a knife at seven yards and knew it would take him 1.5 seconds to stab me and it would take me 1.7 seconds to shoot him I'd rethink everything I know about guns.
But, everything we've ever been taught about safe distances and speed of shooting is based on 21 feet and 1.5 seconds. Most people cannot draw and hit COM in 1.5 seconds the first time they try.
I've become obsessive about it. I was so stunned to realize how slow I was the first time I went against a clock on draw to fire I've practiced regularly for more than 10 years.
Knowing a Neanderthal with a sledge hammer standing 15 feet away can probably bash my skull in before I clear leather really sucks.
That's why I work at it.
The issue that bothers me though, is that most people seem to think a gun is a magic bullet. Very few seem to understand a good rock can come into play more quickly and with more effect than a pistol.
Personally, I'd rather be fast with a rock than slow or inaccurate with a pistol.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Y'all mentioned timed pocket gun drils. We ran these as well for pants carry. Basically, if you are starting the drill with your hand in your pocket and on the gun, you are faster than drawing from a concealed belt holster where you can't be walking around with your hand on your gun. Pocket holsters were slower when the shooter started from the same position as s/he would with a concealed gun carried on the belt. The problem with pocket carry in pants being slower had to do with the time of getting the hand into the pocket.

But, everything we've ever been taught about safe distances and speed of shooting is based on 21 feet and 1.5 seconds. Most people cannot draw and hit COM in 1.5 seconds the first time they try.
I've become obsessive about it. I was so stunned to realize how slow I was the first time I went against a clock on draw to fire I've practiced regularly for more than 10 years.
Knowing a Neanderthal with a sledge hammer standing 15 feet away can probably bash my skull in before I clear leather really sucks.
That's why I work at it.
The issue that bothers me though, is that most people seem to think a gun is a magic bullet. Very few seem to understand a good rock can come into play more quickly and with more effect than a pistol.

The 1.5 second 21 feet drill (Tueller Drill) is based on the good guy being stationary. Now I can't run 21 feet from a standing start in 1.5 seconds, but I can run it fast enough to beat most people to the draw. Even if they do shoot, if it isn't an instantaneous incapacitation shot, I would still be able to slash or stab the shooter (drill run with red gun and cardboard knife made from an ammo box). However, if the intended good guy victim can start moving backwards while drawing, this provides for a good bit of extra time and the best course was backward and lateral from the charging person.

So getting a 1.5 second cold shot off from concealment would be nice, but if you have the room, retreating will buy you a bit of extra time and so it would be good to know how to draw and shoot accurately while retreating. The one nice benefit here is that the target you are shooting gets easier to hit as it closes distance on you.