Driving to California

[Zoogster]

A magazine that is concealed results in a concealed weapons charge even if the gun is unloaded and openly carried in a holster

Can you point me to that case law?
The statute itself does not say that, so it would need to be a binding court decision.
What case was it?

I see a few people saying that online now as of a couple months ago, but nobody cites the relevant case law that determines a concealed magazine is a concealed firearm. It is almost just like they started repeating eachother on forums.

It would be an interesting read because if the magazine is considered the firearm, then it should not be legal for it to be open carried loaded as that would be a violation of pc12030 as it would be carrying a loaded firearm. If the magazine is not considered a firearm then PC12025 would not apply to it.
It would be interesting to hear how the court decided outside of those parameters.

The initial portion of PC12025 reads:
12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

There is numerous exemptions, but if the magazine is considered a firearm then it would be illegal to conceal it at all outside of a locked container, not just while loaded.
Since a magazine is not considered a firearm I don't see how PC12025 applies.

Under PC12031 a loaded firearm is defined as
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

Going over the legal background, it was concluded previously that the magazine or "clip therof" must be attached to the firearm to be a violation of 12031 under section G's definition of loaded.

Case law has determined a side saddle with shells in it does not even constitute loaded, and that is "attached to".
So what was the decision that a loaded magazine is somehow a firearm when loaded and concealed, but is not a firearm when loaded and not concealed as I hear by many posters now (most of whom copy other posters)?
Clearly it does not fit the definition of PC12025, because that only applies to loaded handguns. So it should have nothing to do with being concealed if outside the scope of PC12025.
That just leaves some twisted interpretation of PC13031.

PC12025 and the exemptions of PC12026 are what have to to with concealed firearms.
PC 12031 defines loaded.
So how could something be a firearm concealed that has ammo in it and not a firearm that is illegaly loaded when not concealed? It would either always be a violation or never a violation...

I would like to read how the court twisted some new definition out of the statutes.

 

[wyocarp]

I am assuming that any gun that allows the use of a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds would not be legal. ? That rules out most Glocks.

 

[Zoogster]

I am assuming that any gun that allows the use of a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds would not be legal. ? That rules out most Glocks.

No, it is only magazines over 10 rounds, not a gun that can take a magazine over 10 rounds.
A firearm with more than a 10 round magazine if that magazine was not possessed in CA at the date of enactment automaticly becomes an unregistered "assault weapon" (registration ended years ago) which is a felony. Importation of a magazine over 10 rounds is a seperate additional crime.


It means the firearm is fine, stock magazines over 10 rounds are not. You need to purchase special nuetered magazines to bring to CA.
A regular capacity magazine makes you guilty of multiple crimes, making both the gun and the magazine crimes. Without that magazine the glock is not a crime.


A pistol with a threaded barrel automaticly becomes an "assault weapon".
So just threading a barrel, or bringing an otherwise legal pistol with a threaded muzzle means you are in "illegal possession of an unregistered assault weapon".

A pistol with a detachable magazine that is inserted outside the pistol grip is automaticly an assault weapon.

"assault weapon" in CA simply means gun banned by features or model.
The antis learned it was a term that invoked certain images in the ignorant, creating support even from some fudds, so the definition of the term expands.
Because of the image the term "assault weapon" invokes in the ignorant sheep, the punishments they are able to get on the books for "Assault weapons" are quite severe.
That means relatively minor violations become "illegal possession of an unregistered assault weapon" which for comparison purposes is viewed like illegal possession of a full auto machinegun in the state because of the term "assault weapon".

In fact the punishment for a full auto machinegun and an "unregistered assault weapon" is the same under CA law (though not under federal law clearly.)

PC12280 (assault weapon)
12280. (a) (1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or
causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into
the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who
gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as
provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction
shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six,
or eight years.

PC12220 (machinegun)
12220. (a) Any person, firm, or corporation, who within this state
possesses or knowingly transports a machinegun, except as authorized
by this chapter, is guilty of a public offense and upon conviction
thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison, or by
a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both such
fine and imprisonment.
(b) Any person, firm, or corporation who within this state
intentionally converts a firearm into a machinegun, or who sells, or
offers for sale, or knowingly manufactures a machinegun, except as
authorized by this chapter, is punishable by imprisonment in the
state prison for four, six, or eight years.

In fact ironicly under CA law, the courts actualy have the option of merely giving you a fine under 12220 for a machinegun, meaning the judge has a lot of discretion over the actual punishment for simply having or transporting a machinegun illegaly under 12220 A. (as opposed to making or selling under subsection B). Under PC12280 for having an "Assault Weapon" the punishment is not "or" a fine, it is imprisonment.

So under state law a gun with an illegal 11 round magazine could actualy be punished more severely than an illegal full auto machinegun because violation of the assault weapon law mandates a 4-8 year sentence. Violation of the machinegun law can be punished by a fine and/or imprisonment at the court's discretion.
Of course prosecution under federal law clearly would make the machinegun worse.
Still quite ironic.

 

[Librarian]

Can you point me to that case law?

People v Hale, 43 Cal.App.3d 353 [Crim. No. 24910. Court of Appeals of California, Second Appellate District, Division Two. November 20, 1974.]

I think the net of this case is 'Deputy performed good search'.

In the light of the bizarre arsenal of weaponry Hale had installed around the driver's seat of his automobile, Officer Price had reasonable cause to suspect that a clip and ammunition for the automatic pistol might be hidden close at hand and to make a search for them.

Actual lawyers seem to think

In our opinion concealment of an essential component of a visible weapon, when done in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm, presents a threat to public order comparable to concealment of the entire firearm and falls within the prohibition of section 12025.

means 'concealed magazine' makes the gun concealed -- even if it's in plain sight!

A firearm with more than a 10 round magazine if that magazine was not possessed in CA at the date of enactment automaticly becomes an unregistered "assault weapon" (registration ended years ago) which is a felony. Importation of a magazine over 10 rounds is a seperate additional crime.

It means the firearm is fine, stock magazines over 10 rounds are not. You need to purchase special nuetered magazines to bring to CA.
A regular capacity magazine makes you guilty of multiple crimes, making both the gun and the magazine crimes. Without that magazine the glock is not a crime.

My turn! My turn!

A firearm with more than a 10 round magazine if that magazine was not possessed in CA at the date of enactment automaticly becomes an unregistered "assault weapon"

That's for rifles or pistols with fixed mags.

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall
also mean any of the following:
...
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
...
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

Magazines themselves are regulated at PC 12020:

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
...
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000,

• manufactures or causes to be manufactured,
• imports into the state,
• keeps for sale, or
• offers or exposes for sale, or
• who gives, or lends,

any large-capacity magazine.
[ list formatting added ]

It is not a crime in California to own or possess or use a removable magazine with > 10 round capacity. Since that is so, a pistol with such a magazine is also not a crime (on mag capacity alone).

There is, BTW, a decent but UNTESTED argument that 'manufacture' and 'import' mean doing that FOR SALE, since in most places in PC the code refers to the Federal license for those commercial activities when it specifies them.

I'm not volunteering to be the test case. That argument could also lose in court.

 

[Zoogster]

Okay good information librarian.

I will disagree with the 12025 interpretation by "lawyers" though. I of course would not want to be a test case.
If a detachable magazine is a firearm for the purpose of 12025, then it would also be a firearm for the purposes of 12031 which it is not.
If it is a firearm for the purposes of 12031 then a loaded detached magazine would be a loaded firearm even open carried.

So a loaded magazine should either be legal or illegal in both situations under the interpretation that it is or is not a firearm.

That's for rifles or pistols with fixed mags.

Okay thanks. I was off on that. I should always go read the statute again.
A non-detachable magazine of 11 rounds automaticly makes a firearm an "assault weapon", but a quicker to load firearm with an illegal 30 round magazine plugged into it and dozens more such magazines ready to plug right in when it goes empty is not an "assault weapon".
The logic is so lacking it is hard to even follow using an anti-gun mindset.

So I guess if you permanently attach an 11+ round magazine to a firearm it becomes an assault weapon. Very good information for those making legal offlist firearms like ARs using something like a bullet button.
That means an offlist legal AR or AK (or other detachable magazine firearm with a pistol grip or the other listed 'evil' features) using a magazine over 10 rounds is creation of an illegal "unregistered assault weapon" even if they legaly possessed the magazines before 2000.

That is certain because the definition that makes something like a bullet button legal is "permanently attached". (even though the further definition of "permanently" is that is requires a tool to remove.)
So taking a legal offlist lower, and a legaly possessed 11+ round magazine and combining them by "permanently attaching" the magazine is creation of an illegal unregistered assault weapon.
Because they then created a firearm with a fixed magazine in excess of 10 rounds.

Excellent information. I think I know a number of people that think they legaly attached a legaly owned 11+ round magazine to an offlist firearm without being in violation of the assault weapon laws. Even the ones with ARs that have to be split in half to load are in illegal possession of an "unregistered assault weapon" if they installed a magazine over 10 rounds.

 

[Zoogster]

There is, BTW, a decent but UNTESTED argument that 'manufacture' and 'import' mean doing that FOR SALE, since in most places in PC the code refers to the Federal license for those commercial activities when it specifies them.

Ha, like at the federal level "interstate commerce" once did not include items made in the home for personal use which were never to enter any commerce, nevermind "interstate"?

We saw how that went in Gonzales vs Raich, and how it effected United States v. Stewart who argued his firearms made for his own use that were never going to be sold were not subject to laws regarding commerce, which is where the federal power to make those laws came from in the Constitution.

After Gonzales Vs Raich is became 'clear' that everything is part of commerce, even if it has nothing to do with commerce.
So prior to that ruling it was actualy possible the NFA could be ruled to not apply to homemade firearms for personal use as they were not part of any commerce, nevermind intrastate commerce and therefore outside the Federal Government's Constitutional powers.
By allowing the Government to tell a man they had legal authority over how much wheat he could grow even for personal use (not a part of commerce) in Wickard vs Filburn we were actualy paving the way to affirming the partial destruction of the 2nd Amendment. Who knew?


One is of course state and one federal, but yeah I would not be surprised to see a CA court rule similar and as a result would certainly not want my freedom staked on such a ruling.

 

[wyocarp]

I leave Thursday morning

Well, I have another day. I guess I will be taking a small revolver or two.

Can I have two revolvers in a locked case in the vehicle beside me in California/Nevada?

Do I have to do anything special with the ammo? Can the ammo be anywhere? Loose? In a box?

The other problem is Nevada. It is my understanding that my pistol can be loaded and on the seat beside me or anyplace in the open but not on me and concealed. My permit isn't useable there.?

 

[Sinixstar]

Wyo - your Wyoming permit is no good in NV - but here you can OC.
Not sure off the top of my head if there's any rules about carrying loaded in a car - but not on your person (ie - loaded on the seat next to you).

If you need somewhere to stop and pack things up - there's a Cabella's at Exit 4 on I-80 (I assume you're taking 80 from WY to CA) just west of Reno. It's only 4 miles from the CA border, and provides an excuse to poke around.

Not sure if you've made that drive before - but once you get past that area where Cabella's/Boomtown is - there's not a whole heck of a lot, and not really anywhere I can recall to stop and move things to the trunk until you get fairly well into CA. Hell, in some places there's not even much of a shoulder to pull off on when you're in the mountains.

 

[wyocarp]

The Cabella's thing is exactly what I needed. There are only two problems with that. When I stop there, I will want to spend a lot of money and I'm sure some of it will be on guns I'm sure. The other half is that means that I need to get going early enough to get there before they close.

I try to get to Cabella's in Sidney now and again but not often enough. It was great when I worked on Dick's house in Sidney for a while. I spent every night at Cabella's.

 

[nutter]

The Cabella's thing is exactly what I needed. There are only two problems with that. When I stop there, I will want to spend a lot of money and I'm sure some of it will be on guns I'm sure.

I'm sure they'd hold 'em for you and you can pick 'em up on your return trip.

 

[Sinixstar]

The Cabella's thing is exactly what I needed. There are only two problems with that. When I stop there, I will want to spend a lot of money and I'm sure some of it will be on guns I'm sure. The other half is that means that I need to get going early enough to get there before they close.

I try to get to Cabella's in Sidney now and again but not often enough. It was great when I worked on Dick's house in Sidney for a while. I spent every night at Cabella's.

The cabella's in Reno closes at 8:00 I believe - shouldn't be too bad. I made it from Laramie (I love that part of Wyoming - hell all of WY for that matter) to Reno in about 8-9 hours. I also got a rather pricey ticket just west of Laramie - so take that for what it's worth i guess.
I'm sure I don't have to tell you WY police seem to patrol I-80 quite a bit, especially if you have out of state plates. Utah and NV didn't seem to be nearly as big of an issue.

At the Cabella's exit (4) - there's also a huge casino/hotel area called Boomtown. Being a Casino they're naturally open 24/7 - and would have coffee, food, etc.

There's another Casino - border something or another, about a mile or two down the road. It's a little more remote - and honestly, always seemed a bit seedier to me. I've never stopped there. That's why I didn't recommend it to begin with. Might be a perfectly fine place to stop - just wouldn't be my first choice.

edit : actually - I checked Cabella's hours for my own info (gotta make a trip up there myself) - and they close at 10:00 on Thursday.

 

[wyocarp]

Wow, thanks. But 8 - 9 hours from Laramie? Map Quest says 12 hours and 44 minutes.

Yes, if you got a ticket west of Laramie, ie; near Rawlins or in that county, the tickets are more costly than in other parts of the state.

You didn't mentioned anything about the TWO revolvers. Do you think I can have two revolvers in the locked case while in California? Also, what are the specifics about ammo and where it has to be kept?

I'll see you at Cabella's.

 

[wyocarp]

By the way, what about knives in the great state of California?

 

[Sinixstar]

Wow, thanks. But 8 - 9 hours from Laramie? Map Quest says 12 hours and 44 minutes.

Yes, if you got a ticket west of Laramie, ie; near Rawlins or in that county, the tickets are more costly than in other parts of the state.

You didn't mentioned anything about the TWO revolvers. Do you think I can have two revolvers in the locked case while in California? Also, what are the specifics about ammo and where it has to be kept?

I'll see you at Cabella's.

I have no idea about CA's laws. I live a few miles from the border - and only venture on that side to visit/shop (I don't carry). Gun laws aside - CA's a beautiful place, but i just can't afford to pay 10% off the top in income tax, and god knows what in property tax.
I did come across this though - might answer some of your questions: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf

You can make pretty good time once you hit Utah and Nevada, especially through Bonneville. Mapquest and Google Maps and whatnot assume about 55-65 mph. Going through Bonneville - and most of NV, if you're only doing 65 - you're going to get run off the road. Long flat straight roads with nobody around...

 

[TAB]

By the way, what about knives in the great state of California?

any folder ( other the a switch blade of a butterfly knife) is perfectally legal. Fixed blades over 3.5" concealed = concealed weapon.

 

[Librarian]

Do you think I can have two revolvers in the locked case while in California? Also, what are the specifics about ammo and where it has to be kept?

Two revolvers are fine.

No extra gun locks needed.

No ammo in the cylinders, but speed-loaders/moon clips are fine. They can ride in the same container with the guns or anyplace else you find convenient. (Out of sight would be prudent.)

Knives are somewhat location-specific - in general, treat all concealed fixed-blades as bad, any folders as good, and stay out of schools and courthouses. I carry a Spyderco with a 3.5" blade - no problems, not even questions, in ten years or so.

 

[Zoogster]

Can I have two revolvers in a locked case in the vehicle beside me in California/Nevada?

What you can have legaly and what you would be hassled or arrested for can be different.
Many officers have various slightly wrong interpretations of some sections of the penal code which become thier general understanding of the law, and you then have to straighten things out in court if you run into those officers.

For example, there is a section of law that says certain people who are commiting certain crimes are carrying a loaded firearm if they have immediate access to both an unloaded firearm and ammunition at the same time.
Since the police normaly deal with weapon laws while dealing with various repeat offenders and career criminals with long criminal histories and/or involved in another crime at the time, they become used to applying the statute generaly and not understanding that subtle difference.
That statute only applies in the case of other crimes being commited, but many officers understand it as always being the legal definition of a loaded weapon.
So they will often arrest someone believing them in violation. That means while technicaly legal to have next to you, most would recomend you put it in the back seat or trunk.
Any arrest while in CA will require you to deal with the situation in court in CA.

Further, because you are not a CA resident, your pistols are not registered with the CA DOJ, and you do not have that option either (not that you would want it.) What that means however, is any misdemeanor violation of 12025 is a felony for you, even if you legaly possess the firearms.
A locked container means a locked container. If it is a locking container that is not locked, it is a felony for you to even have an unloaded firearm in it. Once you put a firearm in a container it is concealed, the only way that is not a crime as it applies here is if the container is locked.



Finaly as Librarian said, treat ALL fixed blades as illegal to conceal. Technicaly the law is not a knife law, it is a stabbing weapon law, and applies to all fixed blade knives useful as a stabbing weapons, ice picks, screwdrivers or anything else "readily useful as a stabbing weapon". So technicaly concealing a rounded top or flat top meat cleaver, machete, or even a sword without a point is legal, but the cop that arrests you and charges you with a crime probably won't understand that. They are not lawyers.
Stick with a folder.
A folder that is concealed while open is considered a fixed blade under the law.

Blunt weapons have even more restrictive laws than knives in CA. While even a sword can at the state level be carried openly (not in all counties or cities though because they violate local ordinances) all blunt weapons are serious crimes.
So carrying a stick is a more serious offense than carrying a sword.
Further even normal items becomes serious crimes under the blunt weapon laws if you say you are carrying them for self defense or otherwise imply the normal everyday item is intended for use as a weapon. So you never ever plan or intend to use any item as a weapon. Not a walking stick, not a flashlight, not something heavy on a keychain, not anything period. If you happen to use such an item for self defense that is fine, as long as you did not carry it for that purpose, then it becomes a felony billy, sap, or slungshot under PC12020.
CA definition of Billy, Sap Slungshot, Sandclub etc is not the dictionary definition of those items. The definition is defined in the penal code and further in case law to mean absolutely any blunt object whatsoever intended for use as a weapon. So all blunt weapons made as weapons are automaticly illegal, and all normal legal everyday items become illegal if carried to use as a weapon (even in self defense.)
So it is ironicly legal to open carry a sword for protection even with a tip since its not concealed and the dirk law doesn't apply to something open carried (example, do not do it), It is also legal to conceal any blade not readily useful as a stabbing weapon (cop won't know that), but carrying a stick is a serious crime according to the penal code.
The laws don't make sense, but they are what they are.