Drop Safe Guns

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joed said:
I have a friend who owns his own barbershop. One day when I stopped I found the shop closed in the afternoon. Next day they were open normally and I stopped for my haircut. When I inquired to why they were closed the day before it was an eye opener. One of the customers had recently gotten a CCW permit and stopped in for a haircut. When he finished the customer went to put on his coat. As he put the coat on his carry gun fell out of the holster and pocket hitting the floor. As it hit the floor it discharged, the bullet went through one of the barbers chairs and struck my friend in the buttocks. He has carried that bullet for 4 years now as the doctors felt it would cause no harm.

Can't remember what make the gun was but it was some cheap make in a cheaply made holster that did not secure the gun.

This is why we have drop safe guns, to protect ourselves from ourselves as well as morons that probably shouldn't even have a gun.
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This backs up what I said before.
" It is also because we have more ignorant people buying guns. They just don't know much about guns and many are not willing to learn. Ask most new gun owners it they read the owner's manual for their gun. I bet most will say no."

Now I have never said that there is no need for drop safe guns, Heaven knows your Barber wishes that customer had had one.
Drop safe guns have been on the market for many years as some have pointed out. This is because manufactures wish to offer better and safer products and customers want better products.
But then we have people like the Barber's customer. People that don't know much about what they are doing or doing things they know little about. We will always have people like this with guns. We are lucky that some of them do learn eventually and end up like us.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
This backs up what I said before.
" It is also because we have more ignorant people buying guns. They just don't know much about guns and many are not willing to learn. Ask most new gun owners it they read the owner's manual for their gun. I bet most will say no."

People that don't know much about what they are doing or doing things they know little about. We will always have people like this with guns. We are lucky that some of them do learn eventually and end up like us.
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Truer words were never typed. If you spend enough time at an outdoor range you will eventually run into someone that either doesn't know safe gun handling, how the gun their shooting works or even both of these instances.

There's a reason that some autos have a warning on the receiver that removing the mag can still leave one in the chamber. One thing a friend of mine that worked for the LGS taught me when someone hands you a gun either have them show you it's unloaded or check it yourself. It's one of the rules I live by.
 
Market demand.
If offered a selection of handguns with similar desirable features, some being drop safe some not, people will buy the drop safe ones in far greater numbers.
 
As Driftwood indicates, drop safety is something that was of concern to manufacturers long before WWII, not just in the last few years. Col. Cooper reported seeing a serveman drop a 1911 during WWII. It discharged, resulting in a death. Even Colt was concerned enough prior to WWII to initiate use of the Schwartz(sp?) safety system in their guns. It was discontinued due to the requirement to produce Mil-Spec guns guns to our military in WWII. The Series '80 FPS system incorporated by Colt in '83, is meant to address the same safety concerns. Other manufacturers of newer designs often incorporate their own version of a FPS in their guns. A good thing IMHO. I admit that I have dropped a gun, and was not offended in the least that the gun had a FPS.

BTW, to those concerned that a FPS adds a few ounces to trigger pull, may I respectfully suggest that in a lethal force situation requiring use of your firearm, a slightly heavier trigger pull will not be a concern.........ymmv
 
hdwhit said:
Because you now have millions of people who think they need to carry a gun "with one in the chamber" that doesn't have a manual safety.
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It started with revolvers* and many revolver designs have been drop safe for decades. Which means that millions of people have been carrying sidearms with a cartridge in the chamber for decades before the 21st century came to be.

*Edit to add: Probably muzzle loading single-shot arms.
 
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joed said:
One thing a friend of mine that worked for the LGS taught me when someone hands you a gun either have them show you it's unloaded or check it yourself. It's one of the rules I live by.
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Same here. When I ask to see a gun in a store, after I watch the clerk safety check the gun, and they hand it to me, I have made it an automatic habit to safety check it myself. In fact on a semiauto, I prefer the clerk hand it to me with the action open.

I have a retired military friend who used to scare the hell out of me regularly. He had recent shoulder surgery and decided to shoot his Mossberg 590 :confused:. After watching him wedge the butt of the shotgun against his groin to chamber a shell :uhoh: he then handed it to me with the safety off. I watched the same guy jerkily try to clear a jam from his Ithica 1911 with the overhand method. He wasn't tapping, wracking, and rolling, he was just trying to force the action to eject the cartridge by slamming the action back and jiggling it around. It was pointed back and to his left, where another shooter was standing.

I don't shoot with him anymore, and he is an example of a person who breeds the necessity for drop safe firearms.
 
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joed said:
I have a friend who owns his own barbershop. One day when I stopped I found the shop closed in the afternoon. Next day they were open normally and I stopped for my haircut. When I inquired to why they were closed the day before it was an eye opener. One of the customers had recently gotten a CCW permit and stopped in for a haircut. When he finished the customer went to put on his coat. As he put the coat on his carry gun fell out of the holster and pocket hitting the floor. As it hit the floor it discharged, the bullet went through one of the barbers chairs and struck my friend in the buttocks. He has carried that bullet for 4 years now as the doctors felt it would cause no harm.

Can't remember what make the gun was but it was some cheap make in a cheaply made holster that did not secure the gun.

This is why we have drop safe guns, to protect ourselves from ourselves as well as morons that probably shouldn't even have a gun.
Click to expand...
The best reason I've heard for being a baldy. Having hair is highly over rated and now dangerous.
 
Never forget that the first word of the issue is "drop." You have to bungle something in the first place to even chance the odds. Make that your priority - use a secure holster, carry it securely, and don't fumble with it or get it out for show and tell. Do that and drop safety becomes one of those things that are far less common than looking down the barrel or muzzling the customers in the gun shop with your loaded carry piece with your finger on the trigger. "Drop" = "negligent handling" first and foremost. Don't drop it and the question never comes up.

BTW, do you know how holsters for LEO carry are tested? Strap it on, place empty handgun in it, then engage in full contact martial arts. If it falls out, it fails. Get knocked down on concrete, kicked, and beaten? It falls out it fails. Maybe the problem is we aren't buying holsters that are drop safe.

Now, you drew your weapon and its in your hand? Umm, I'm thinking your are going to either A) immediately unload it, or B) start shooting. No, not waving it around or trying to impress some dude with your credit card debt, actually shooting people who represent a lethal threat.

Now go back and read of the negligent discharges in this thread alone and see where every one was caused by not being in a drop safe holster and by the negligent brandishing of a weapon. I'm being a bit pointed about it - the real issue with drop safety isn't that its not being done, we've established that it most certainly has been for over a century. What the current focus is exploiting are all the new shooters who have not been raised in the black and white perspective of an older gun generation who taught - literally in some cases - by beating it into you.

At one time there was one in ten who were military veterans, now it's one in one hundred and that means most are not familiar with the absolute rules of carry. If anything they got time outs, not knocked out. Sounds extreme but believe me, in the day if you pointed a loaded weapon anywhere but downrange on a military firing line you would have a safety E6 or above literally screaming in your ears with a hand raised to beat some common sense into you or your rebellious unsafe actions out of you. Why? YOU BECAME A LETHAL THREAT.

Strangely enough, we don't see it that way now. Somebody pulls out their gun, muzzles half the shopping crowd with it unloading it, leaves one in the chamber, and then is OMG "embarrassed" when the other person jacks a round out the chamber. I can unequivocally state it happens at least once at every gun show in America every weekend.

The way drop safety is being spun right now, we blame the makers for our negligence and force them to foot the bill. But do we really? Of course not - any expense is charged to the cost of the gun, and if you want to buy one you are paying the price to meet that standard. If we jack up the standards to the point that the gun cannot be found thru extensive and even fraudulent testing to be safe - THERE WOULD BE NO GUNS FOR SALE.

Be careful what you ask for.

It's a lethal weapon. Carry it and use it for what it is - not a badge of masculinity.
 
joed said:
As he put the coat on his carry gun fell out of the holster and pocket hitting the floor. As it hit the floor it discharged, the bullet went through one of the barbers chairs and struck my friend in the buttocks. He has carried that bullet for 4 years now as the doctors felt it would cause no harm. Can't remember what make the gun was but it was some cheap make in a cheaply made holster that did not secure the gun.
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One of the most popular guns that isn't drop-proof was the Raven .25acp. But it could be anything.

What happened after this unfortunate incident? Lawsuit? Arrest?

I'd never buy a gun that wasn't drop-proof, even though I've never dropped a gun. People are people and gravity is gravity. And Murphy's Law knows no bounds. The widespread practice of leaving an empty chamber in six-shooters illustrates the need for such safeties. If people didn't tend to drop the datgum things, more cowboys would have carried six and hoped for the best. Ruger also reported in their ads that cowboys would roll up "burying" money and stuff it in that empty chamber. That way, if they fell off their horse and broke their neck, or got shot by a jealous husband or boyfriend, they could get a proper burial!
 
rskent said:
Funny, I always thought this idea was started in the imagination of Louis L’amour.
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Read Sixguns by Elmer Keith. He recommends the "load one, skip one, load four then cock and lower the hammer" procedure to put an empty chamber under the hammer. Keith relates examples of why six in the wheel is a bad idea with SA revolvers. SASS competition also uses this method. So it's no one's imagination.
 
The Colt SAA instructions of the 1880s recommended use of the safety notch. Fewer lawyers, I guess. Unless you could retain J. Nobel Daggett.

When I was shooting CAS, I was frequently instructed in the load one, skip one, load 4 technique at the loading table. I had read of it some years before in Skeeter Skelton's articles, but elected not to do it because I wanted to be able to roll the cylinder and make sure I didn't have a high primer or burred rim that would bind up cylinder rotation when I shot. But I was considered a dullard by many range experts.

I know of a shooting which was reported as a dropped Remington pattern derringer. Now these little guns are heavy in the butt so they tend to land muzzle up, and they have thin action pins which are subject to bending or shearing, letting the hammer strike the firing pin. So it all sounded very plausible. But it later came out that it was a domestic dispute that everybody was very suddenly sorry about and was covered up by a knowledgeable "witness."
 
Tirod said:
Never forget that the first word of the issue is "drop." You have to bungle something in the first place to even chance the odds. Make that your priority - use a secure holster, carry it securely, and don't fumble with it or get it out for show and tell. Do that and drop safety becomes one of those things that are far less common than looking down the barrel or muzzling the customers in the gun shop with your loaded carry piece with your finger on the trigger. "Drop" = "negligent handling" first and foremost. Don't drop it and the question never comes up.

BTW, do you know how holsters for LEO carry are tested? Strap it on, place empty handgun in it, then engage in full contact martial arts. If it falls out, it fails. Get knocked down on concrete, kicked, and beaten? It falls out it fails. Maybe the problem is we aren't buying holsters that are drop safe.

Now, you drew your weapon and its in your hand? Umm, I'm thinking your are going to either A) immediately unload it, or B) start shooting. No, not waving it around or trying to impress some dude with your credit card debt, actually shooting people who represent a lethal threat.

Now go back and read of the negligent discharges in this thread alone and see where every one was caused by not being in a drop safe holster and by the negligent brandishing of a weapon. I'm being a bit pointed about it - the real issue with drop safety isn't that its not being done, we've established that it most certainly has been for over a century. What the current focus is exploiting are all the new shooters who have not been raised in the black and white perspective of an older gun generation who taught - literally in some cases - by beating it into you.

At one time there was one in ten who were military veterans, now it's one in one hundred and that means most are not familiar with the absolute rules of carry. If anything they got time outs, not knocked out. Sounds extreme but believe me, in the day if you pointed a loaded weapon anywhere but downrange on a military firing line you would have a safety E6 or above literally screaming in your ears with a hand raised to beat some common sense into you or your rebellious unsafe actions out of you. Why? YOU BECAME A LETHAL THREAT.

Strangely enough, we don't see it that way now. Somebody pulls out their gun, muzzles half the shopping crowd with it unloading it, leaves one in the chamber, and then is OMG "embarrassed" when the other person jacks a round out the chamber. I can unequivocally state it happens at least once at every gun show in America every weekend.

The way drop safety is being spun right now, we blame the makers for our negligence and force them to foot the bill. But do we really? Of course not - any expense is charged to the cost of the gun, and if you want to buy one you are paying the price to meet that standard. If we jack up the standards to the point that the gun cannot be found thru extensive and even fraudulent testing to be safe - THERE WOULD BE NO GUNS FOR SALE.

Be careful what you ask for.

It's a lethal weapon. Carry it and use it for what it is - not a badge of masculinity.
Click to expand...

Read my post. Sometimes guns get dropped, and it is unavoidable and in no way the fault of the shooter.
 
I am very aware guns get dropped. And I am aware of the way that is handled in the military - you drop it, you are disciplined. It's considered a bad thing. Yet in the civilian arena we seem to find excuses and for the most part many new gun owners have not be raised to accept responsibility for their mistakes. They sue the makers.

Said makers have been and continue to develop their new guns with drop safety in mind. Owners, however, continue to reduce trigger weights, modify parts, add others which were never tested in a whole gun for drop safety, and then complain they aren't at fault. People who are barely qualified to load and carry firearms are pointing fingers at makers as the cause of their problems, and not recognizing that is a significant part of the issue here. It seems the perspective on drop safety is that the carrier is never at fault for doing something he wasn't supposed to do in the first place.

Now, define "unavoidable" and how manufacturer drop safety design is inherently at fault and not the shooter.
 
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