No the sole responsibility lies with the murderous thugs who elected to break the law, and let's not pretend they were taking some moral stand they were growing pot, and then decided rather than man up and take the consequences for breaking the law the would kill four Mounties. No one but those criminals bears any responsibility for the deaths of those four men.
Drug "Warriors" Reap What They Sow
- Thread starter Tall Man
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Old Dog
Member
Some truly scary posts here. What's sad is that apparently many of you do believe there is a similarity between the war on drugs and the anti-gun movement.
Clearly, many of you have never seen the ravages of drugs course through your own family. I'm not even talking about the so-called "war on drugs," I'm talking about how addiction affects the user, his/her community, and ultimately, his/her family.
The originally posted article is an example of the worst sort of commentary. No redeeming social value whatsoever.
Clearly, many of you have never seen the ravages of drugs course through your own family. I'm not even talking about the so-called "war on drugs," I'm talking about how addiction affects the user, his/her community, and ultimately, his/her family.
The originally posted article is an example of the worst sort of commentary. No redeeming social value whatsoever.
The author of this article is an idiot.
I'm glad they caught the creeps running the child molester chop shop.
Even though I think the war on drugs is an is costly in both monetary terms and personal freedom it is not an excuse to murder cops.
Adam Sterling is a liar.
I'm glad they caught the creeps running the child molester chop shop.
Even though I think the war on drugs is an is costly in both monetary terms and personal freedom it is not an excuse to murder cops.
Adam Sterling is a liar.
fjolnirsson
Member
Yep, me too.
The "War On Drugs" has been the root cause of our governments erosion of The Bill Of Rights. It is pointless, wasted effort, and a failed attempt to legislate morality. Simply put, it doesn't work. Go to your local high school, and ask the students there which is easier to obtain, tobacco, or crank. They will undoubtedly give the answer that crank is by far, the easier of the two for them to score. The reason for this is that tobacco is legal, and therefore strictly regulated. Shopowners make consistent efforts not sell to minors, because big daddy government imposes strict penalties for sale to minors. Same case with alcohol.
Back when I was in high school, everybody had pot and crank for the weekend parties, but beer and hard liquor was darn hard to come by. We couldn't buy it on street corners, we had to find somebody sympathetic to our cause.
The war on drugs, as well as the war on guns, have racism as their root cause. White men were afraid their women would be lured to opium dens, where they would sleep with Chinese men. Tales of Negro men driven into a fury by cocaine were the sensational media stories of the day.
Having said that, if you're growing weed, knowing it's illegal, it's just plain stupid to be running a chop shop on the premises.
Law Dog, how many times have you caught drug users or people with warrants due to expired reg, or busted taillights, etc? If your state is remotely similar to CA, I'd bet on the answer being often.
If you're doing something you know is illegal, fair or not, infringement on liberty or not, it is up to you to avoid being caught. This requires that you not do stupid stuff.
If I were to decide not to get my CCW, and carry despite that, because it is my right, I certainly wouldn't be driving around with expired reg, nor would I be causing public disturbances, or any of a hundred other things I have seen tweakers do which caused them to be arrested.
My own family has been torn by drug abuse. My sister (now 37) has lived with my parents since she was 26. Her husband and 3 children live with them as well. My sister and her husband choose to use crank, rather than be productive members of society. My mother and father enable this behavior through their finacial support. After 10 years of watching my parents being pulled into a hole, I chose to diassociate myself from my family. My daughter will never see her grandmother, grandfather, or aunt again. She will never have the feelings of embarrassment I have had my entire life when looking at my family.
In contrast to this, is my former priest. He is a recreational pot user. He smokes every morning and every night, as well as some occasions between. He is a pillar of the community, and holds down a full time job outside of the church. To speak with him, you would never know he uses.
Myself, I don't see the attraction, and I have no sympathy for those like my sister. I feel users should bear full responsibility for their actions, just as alcoholics do if they mow someone down while driving.
Hmm, rambling again. ... I think I'll post this on my blog.
crashresidue
Member
This has GOT to be the strangest thread I've ever followed to the "end"!
Yes, we elect the public officals that make the laws - but we do that based on what they've told us. We do NOT have any say in what they legislate - until we either vote them out or recall them. It takes YEARS to undo what they've done, in "our name" - in the law books.
Here on Maui, operation "Green Harvest" has been SO succesful that the locals can't afford "poko lolo" (pot) anymore - so they've turned to the cheapest drug they can find. Guess what it is? - ICE!
So, now that "our" laws have done so well getting rid of pot, we now have ALL the problems associated with ICE. "We" voted this "thing" into law, but the "law" can't catch up with the "new reality"!
To the families of the Mounties - bless you and your lost ones! They paid the ultimate price of protecting the "general public" from demons that we have created with some "" laws. ( I had said "stupid" in this post - it could be taken the wrong way - I don't want to offend these people).
Your "sons, fathers, brothers" have paid the "ultimate sacrifice" to uphold the laws of the land - God bless them, and you!
I don't agree with all the laws my country enacts, but, mostly, they are done with the protection of the majority in consideration.
I do NOT disrespect your fallen - I only rank them with my brothers that fell in Viet Nam - "brothers in arms" - those that I'll see again some day.
Good night,
Gentle winds,
Russell
Yes, we elect the public officals that make the laws - but we do that based on what they've told us. We do NOT have any say in what they legislate - until we either vote them out or recall them. It takes YEARS to undo what they've done, in "our name" - in the law books.
Here on Maui, operation "Green Harvest" has been SO succesful that the locals can't afford "poko lolo" (pot) anymore - so they've turned to the cheapest drug they can find. Guess what it is? - ICE!
So, now that "our" laws have done so well getting rid of pot, we now have ALL the problems associated with ICE. "We" voted this "thing" into law, but the "law" can't catch up with the "new reality"!
To the families of the Mounties - bless you and your lost ones! They paid the ultimate price of protecting the "general public" from demons that we have created with some "" laws. ( I had said "stupid" in this post - it could be taken the wrong way - I don't want to offend these people).
Your "sons, fathers, brothers" have paid the "ultimate sacrifice" to uphold the laws of the land - God bless them, and you!
I don't agree with all the laws my country enacts, but, mostly, they are done with the protection of the majority in consideration.
I do NOT disrespect your fallen - I only rank them with my brothers that fell in Viet Nam - "brothers in arms" - those that I'll see again some day.
Good night,
Gentle winds,
Russell
thorn726
Member
crank is speed, methampetamine, really awful nasty stuff origianlly controlled be Hells Angels, now controlled by mexicans.
one line of good crank keeps a person up for DAYS. these people go without sleep for weeks, induce psychotic paranoid states ON PURpose.
******
this is weird, as far as the shooting=
i have to say the Majority of Canadian weed is brought to US and sold by Vietnamese gangs wh oare HEaVily armed and like to shoot and rob each other,
and anyone in canada growing mass quantites is jsut another
JERK taking more tax free money out of the US.
support your local small gower, scre wthe big farmer, i hat the drug war, genreally dont like what the police are doing, but in this case,
this is stupid. i feel terrible for the cops families.
killing cops doenst help the legalization fight one bit.
i like the old sixties philosophy much bettter, turn em on, they'll tune in=
"soaking door handles of cop cars with LSD and DMSO"
hehehehe was a song
( DMSO's ability to pass through membranes,
In addition, DMSO can carry other drugs with it across membranes,(skin) etc from def.)
one line of good crank keeps a person up for DAYS. these people go without sleep for weeks, induce psychotic paranoid states ON PURpose.
******
this is weird, as far as the shooting=
i have to say the Majority of Canadian weed is brought to US and sold by Vietnamese gangs wh oare HEaVily armed and like to shoot and rob each other,
and anyone in canada growing mass quantites is jsut another
JERK taking more tax free money out of the US.
support your local small gower, scre wthe big farmer, i hat the drug war, genreally dont like what the police are doing, but in this case,
this is stupid. i feel terrible for the cops families.
killing cops doenst help the legalization fight one bit.
i like the old sixties philosophy much bettter, turn em on, they'll tune in=
"soaking door handles of cop cars with LSD and DMSO"
hehehehe was a song
( DMSO's ability to pass through membranes,
In addition, DMSO can carry other drugs with it across membranes,(skin) etc from def.)
I don't think you can say anyone one group "conrols" the meth trade. The ease with which a small meth lab can be set up and run, any idiot who can follow a simple recipe can start producing and selling meth. Certain groups might have control of small areas, but there isn't one group that dominates the meth trade across the country.
Yowza
Member
And there you have the reason why prohibition won't work. Puts me in mind of that Kopel piece on how to rid the world of guns in which he says we just have to forget what we know about chemistry and metallurgy.
Rick
Leave it to LawDog to insert logic back into this debate. This only became about pot when those who want it legalized decided to stand on the corpses of these men, elevate the thief/murderer to sainthood, and proclaim their cause.
Personally, I don't care what you do with your body. But I find it amazing that people talk about using hobby or hard core drugs like it's a good thing. The damage caused by drugs is not due to social stigma or prohibition, it's due to the effects of the drug themselves. You can have the most loving supportive environment possible, and that drug addict in that utopian environment is still going to be screwed if asked to do anything but lie there and degenerate until they kick the habit.
Personally, I don't care what you do with your body. But I find it amazing that people talk about using hobby or hard core drugs like it's a good thing. The damage caused by drugs is not due to social stigma or prohibition, it's due to the effects of the drug themselves. You can have the most loving supportive environment possible, and that drug addict in that utopian environment is still going to be screwed if asked to do anything but lie there and degenerate until they kick the habit.
Well put.
Can you honestly talk about the "ravages of drugs" while ignoring the agony caused by legal abuse of drugs such as alcohol?
Why is the answer to one abuse support groups and the other imprisonment?
Yup. So why aren't you pushing a ban on alcohol?
GhostRider66
Member
Wow....
Boom: I say that the Federal government does not have the power do anything (mandated by the people - majority or not) if it is not explicitly empowered to do so by the Constitution. For example, if a majority of the population wanted to hang all illegal immigrants tomorrow, it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) matter a bit because the Constitution does not allow for it.
I don't want anyone to mistake my intentions here. Let me be clear: DRUGS ARE BAD, HORRIBLE, ADDICTIVE, DESTRUCTIVE, NAUGHTY, SHAMEFUL, and ICKY.
That being said, I still hold that legal prohibition especially by the federal government is a bad idea. Aside from the legal/Constitutional implications, you are taking a market of relatively cheap, easily produced and highly desirable products and handing them over the worst in our society. The situation that you are left with is an ever escalating series of atrocious occurrences. The people in charge of enforcing the prohibition will be left with having to match the tactics of people with no moral bearing whatsoever. And once these tactics are applied successfully in this arena, simple logic will dictate that they become SOP for all areas of enforcement. All this coupled with corruption, both real and perceived have left law enforcement agencies in a very untenable position of having to protect people who at many times view them with suspicion at best and derision at worst.
Growing up, all I ever wanted to do was join law enforcement. After spending some time working in intelligence in the army and subsequent to the fall of the iron curtain, I was offered to continue working but this time in drug interdiction. This one issue is what forever made me change my outlook on wanting to pursue this career any further.
Boom: I say that the Federal government does not have the power do anything (mandated by the people - majority or not) if it is not explicitly empowered to do so by the Constitution. For example, if a majority of the population wanted to hang all illegal immigrants tomorrow, it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) matter a bit because the Constitution does not allow for it.
I don't want anyone to mistake my intentions here. Let me be clear: DRUGS ARE BAD, HORRIBLE, ADDICTIVE, DESTRUCTIVE, NAUGHTY, SHAMEFUL, and ICKY.
That being said, I still hold that legal prohibition especially by the federal government is a bad idea. Aside from the legal/Constitutional implications, you are taking a market of relatively cheap, easily produced and highly desirable products and handing them over the worst in our society. The situation that you are left with is an ever escalating series of atrocious occurrences. The people in charge of enforcing the prohibition will be left with having to match the tactics of people with no moral bearing whatsoever. And once these tactics are applied successfully in this arena, simple logic will dictate that they become SOP for all areas of enforcement. All this coupled with corruption, both real and perceived have left law enforcement agencies in a very untenable position of having to protect people who at many times view them with suspicion at best and derision at worst.
Growing up, all I ever wanted to do was join law enforcement. After spending some time working in intelligence in the army and subsequent to the fall of the iron curtain, I was offered to continue working but this time in drug interdiction. This one issue is what forever made me change my outlook on wanting to pursue this career any further.
Listen, My dad was an alchoholic for my entire childhood... I don't think he had a sober day until I was 19 and he went into rehab. So I am intimately familiar with the effects an addiction can have on a family. Now, even with that experience behind me, I think that the war on some drugs is a ridiculous waste of time, effort, and most especially our constitutionally mandated rights. That being said, the scumbags that shot those mounties need a short trip to the long dirt nap. My general feelings are that the government has no businees getting involved in anyones personal lives unless it be as protector of constitutional rights.
Well - I've seen it. Drugs killed my mother and ruined her marriage. Drugs are killing my father in law. Drugs are are responsible for my brother having killed a man, his own wife and spending 11 years in jail for it.
What was the drug? Alcohol.
Alcohol is responsible for way more loss of life and economic losses than all the other illegal drugs combined I'd bet.
But alcohol isn't illegal...
I wonder why?
Sindawe
Member
We tried that in this country. All it got us was disrespect for the law, organized crime becoming entrenched in American society and crimminal gangs in shootouts over territory.
Kinda like we have today, eh?
PaulV
Member
Because alcohol has deep roots in western civilization and can be used without being abused. This is not true of most illegal drugs. How many "social" heroine users are there?
MobileSuitPilotX
Member
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I love the hyperbole. Everyone knows one hit turns anyone into an addict, who then in turn immediately flushes their life down the toilet; raping, murdering, and stealing along the way. Occasional drug use turns even the mildest personality into a murdering savage with absolutely no control of themselves. They completely forget the last XX years of their lives, their moral compass spinning uncontrollably, in a couple of hours of murderous bliss. It's like blacking out from hit #1 until it wears off. EVERYBODY knows that!
Too Many Choices!?
Member
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- 763
The point is the busy body know it alls say......
"You do not have a right to screw up your own life." My response is, since when! I have a right to quit my job and become a pan handler if I want to!.....If my choice does not effect any one else, go hump a cactus and leave me alone
you tree huggin, flower powered, pukes 
Rights are not selected by the masses only where I can exercise that right.... yes you can quote me on that...
PS Rights are not regulated by the government only laws and criminals. So why have we crossed over and started regulating rights ? 2nd ammendmant anyone......
"You do not have a right to screw up your own life." My response is, since when! I have a right to quit my job and become a pan handler if I want to!.....If my choice does not effect any one else, go hump a cactus and leave me alone
you tree huggin, flower powered, pukes Rights are not selected by the masses only where I can exercise that right.... yes you can quote me on that... PS Rights are not regulated by the government only laws and criminals. So why have we crossed over and started regulating rights
? 2nd ammendmant anyone......"Deep roots in western civilization" doesn't buy anything with me. If'n it's bad, it's bad. If'n it's not, it's not.
As for "can be used without being abused", if it could be demonstrated that a recreational drug could be used without being abused, would you support that it be decriminalized? If it could be demonstrated that substances that are currently legal were very likely to be addictive, would you support criminalizing them?
Check out the Henningfield and Benowitz rating systems for addiction for a fun graph here. Marijuana compares extremely favorably against legal drugs such as alcohol, caffeine and nicotine.
PaulV
Member
Like it your not, you live in a society and societies have traditions and norms. Alcohol and tobacco have been in use for thousands of years. Other recreational drugs have to buy their way into acceptance and there are millions of us who will not currently accept having weed commercially available so our kids could buy it with a slurpy at 7-11.
Name one. I can have a drink, smoke a cigarette, or have a cup of coffee without going into a mind altered state. Can the same be said for any of the illegal drugs that some seem to be championing.
That's really what it always comes down to in prohibitionist's minds, isn't it? "If we aren't fighting a WAR on drugs, our kids will buy them at the grocery stores, at schools and at gas stations!!!!"
Guess what? Your kids could probably buy pot from a guy at the 7-11 ... right now. At the same 7-11 that they couldn't buy a pack of cigs. That's a big part of the issue. If your argument for prohibition of drugs is based on keeping it out of your kid's hands, you need to first examine the reality (it's probably easier for them to buy illicit drugs than legal ones) and second examine your parenting. There were several opportunities for me to try and buy a variety of drugs - legal and illegal alike - throughout high school. It was not an issue of law that kept me from smoking pot, and it was not an issue of law that kept me from drinking alcohol.
Completely untrue. Alcohol in even minor quantities will alter your mind's state. As will nicotine and caffeine. Just because you're used to the effects of those particular drugs and have built up your tolerances to them doesn't change the impact they have on your body.
I think it is interesting that you define "abuse" as "going into a mind altered state". Would you agree that alcohol is routinely and publically abused? Is that abuse fine with you, then? Is that abuse somehow better than the abuse of illicit drugs?
Additionally, I think you're comparing differing dosages. You're picturing someone coming off of a three day meth bender and wanting to compare that to casually having a drink with dinner, or someone on their fifth joint of the day and comparing them to someone having a single Pepsi. No dice. Makes as much sense as comparing someone who wakes up with a bottle in their hand every morning to someone who takes a single puff from a joint to relax with a group of friends on the weekend. The quantity of cocaine that used to be present in Coca-Cola gave just a slightly greater "upper" effect than the caffeine that replaced it. Marijuana can be injested or smoked in small amounts for an effect similar to your alcohol with a meal.
Personally, I eschew recreational drugs as a matter of course, excepting caffeine which I tolerate but do not seek and the extremely occasional bowl of tobacco in a pipe (I think I last smoked it five or six months ago).
thorn726
Member
there is some logic to what i say=
originally , the Hells Angels had THE connection to Switzerland to get key ingredients for meth manufacture.
NOW, those chemicals are pretty much only getting to US from Mexico.
yes, there are small production groups here and there, but essentially the cooks are either connectd to Hells Angels, or Mexicans.
Why isnt there tons of speed back east???????
DUH= THE MOB. mafia doesnt like cheap easy drugs, doenst like to deal with other groups, so no speed makes it east, or very little.
people think the sopranos don't really exist anymore, they do.
the things are all way more organized than people think.
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