Durability of Smith .357 N frames shot DA

[ChristopherG]

HSMITH has posted some useful comments. Go back a few posts.

Whoops. Gotta review the thread every time I drop in, I guess; too much activity from too many helpful people!

That old bolt-stop pin sounds like a remarkable piece of craftsmanship; I gotta look for that on the next ancient S&W I get to handle.

 

[thatguy]

HSmith, you are doing a lot of shooting but I am still surprised you have had this problem. Like I said, individual guns may exhibit problems due to manufacturing defects, like maybe the cylinder on your gun wasn't tempered properly. Have you had this problem with any other gun? If is is, as suggested by some, the mass of the cylinder giving the trouble, would we not expect to see this failure on the .22 revolvers? With the small bore size their cylinders must be very heavy and a lot of .22 pistols get shot much more than do the larger calibers.

I can only repeat my own experience which involves numerous N frames from 1955-60, with a couple being subjected to extensive DA shooting over the years, and no peening of the cylinder stop nothces can be observed. I did have one gun, a 27-nothing made in 1960, that required a new cylinder stop spring. The old one got weak and the cylinder would sometimes skip through to next chamber when firing in fast DA. A new spring cured the ailment. I don't even really call this a breakage, just a worn part.

 

[Dave T]

HSmith, I will back up your story and add my own. I bought a new M28 in 1973 when I went in the Adademy. I was concerned about the training I received (it wasn't very extensive or realistic) so I practiced a lot on my own. I tried to shoot a minimum of 100 rounds a week and more when time and finances would allow. Probably an average of 500-600 rounds a month. These were all magnum handloads and all fired rapid fire double action (practical, realistic training for selfdefense). My model 28 was about done for before I got off probation. Timing was shot, end shake was bad, it would spit lead and occasionally back up (as you described).

I have also owned other N-Frame Smiths that have been shot extensively, but at a more leasurely pace. They have held up much better. Those of you who claim this won't happen to an N-Frame do not understand the kind of hard, fast shooting MSmith and I are talking about. A steady diet of this kind of "rapid fire" DA shooting will do in any revolver in a few thousand rounds. N-Frames may be a little worse than others, because of the cylinder mass.

Dave

 

[HSMITH]

thatguy, to answer your question:

Yes, I have had other N-frames with timing problems and battering due to hard and fast DA shooting. I was well on my way to tearing up a 4" M27-2 when I sold it, the guy just HAD to have it and paid too much so I let it go. I had about 2500 rounds through it and it was getting loose, not spitting but it wouldn't have been long. I had a 629 mountain gun that had timing problems at about 3000 rounds, but I also shot very heavy handloads extensively in it that shouldn't have contributed to timing issues but could have been a factor.

I have seen it happen with several other N-frames owned by friends and family members also. Most were cops like Dave T above, and tore up their guns shooting fast defensive drills. The best N-frame for durability are the 'enhanced' 45 acp and 45 Colt model 25's, followed by the pre-enhanced 45's. The worst are the 38's and 357's. You mention the K22, I have seen battering in K22's also to a lesser degree and suspect most of the damage has been done by thumbing the hammer back hard and fast. Very few of us hammer on our K22's the way we do with the 38's and 45's or I suspect it would be more prevalent.

For whatever it might be worth, I have a M25-5 in 45 Colt that has 1000 rounds or so through it now and is absolutely as tight as the day it came out of the factory. It has no detectable wear or looseness at all. I shoot it a lot SA and when I do shoot it DA I do it at a more 'normal' pace and cadence, I would guess no more than two shots every 3 seconds. My use of this revolver is much more in line with what the average wheelgun owner is going to do with an N-frame.

I'm not in the least afraid to use a gun HARD, I know the consequences and accept them. I really like the weight of the N-frame 38's and 357's for extended shooting sessions but I am two for two or maybe even three for three tearing them up. Add the fact that I can't carry one concealed in anything close to ease and I have no desire for another one. The K-frame fits what I want in a revolver better than anything made before or since, and it is my platform of choice.

Old Fuff, thanks for the info on the hardened inserts. I was not aware of that, my pre-war collection numbers zero right now and I have never looked at one close enough to notice. It makes perfect sense, but in this day and age it would be a nightmare in labor costs, especially when you consider the small number of guys that would pay extra for it.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Of course no one would do such a thing today.

For whatever it's worth, Manurhin MR-73 barrels, frames, and cylinders are claimed to be "machined from specially formulated, ordnance-certified alloyed steel stock procured from Aubert & Duval, an internationally-recognised specialist manufacturer of special steels." The French Gendarmerie armed its special unit GIGN with these revolvers upon finding that none of their American made counterparts could withstand its training requirements, including daily consumption of 150 rounds of Norma 158 grain .357 Magnum ammo. The MR-73 is known to have survived a torture test with 170,000 rounds of this high pressure ammunition. I wonder what proportion of these rounds was fired in the double action mode.

 

[JNewell]

Manurhin

Interesting post and link. I've read about them for more than 30 years...I don't believe I've ever seen a new or used one for sale in the U.S. Does anyone import them?

 

[thatguy]

Well, I am speechless. I do not know how you are tearing up these guns so fast. I linked this thread on the Smith & Wesson Forum and the concensus among some hard core shooters over there was that after 50,000 rounds you could look for some serious wear issues and at 100,000 you can count on it. Here you are breaking guns at 1,000 to 2,500 rounds. All I can say is that I have never, I mean never heard of guns failing so quickly. None of mine exhibit any timing or cylinder stop/notch trouble after many times the amount of use you seem to get. Oh well...

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Manurhin

Interesting post and link. I've read about them for more than 30 years...I don't believe I've ever seen a new or used one for sale in the U.S. Does anyone import them?

The last time Manurhin MR-73 were imported by Century Arms a few years back, their asking price was around $1,100. At this time, there is no U.S. importer, though Earl J. Sheehan Jr. of Earl's Repair Service, Inc. in Tewksbury, MA, the exclusive U.S. distributor of Korth revolvers, reportedly attempted to fill this gap three years ago. In Australia, the retail prices for the Manurhin product line are as follows:

Manurhin MR .32 and .38 Match in .32 S&W Long or .38 S&W Special, with KN Ortho Grip, cased: A$2499, US$1499

Manurhin MR 73 Sport in .357 S&W Magnum or .38 S&W Special, double action, with KN Grip or factory rubber grip, cased: A$2399, US$1399

Manurhin MR 88 Sport in .357 S&W Magnum, 4" barrel, rubber grip, cased: A$1499, US$899

Manurhin MR 96 in .357 Magnum with a choice of 6", 4", 3", and 2/1/2" interchangeable barrels: A$1499, US$899

http://www.sportingguns.com.au/Pistols/manurhin/manurhin.html
http://www.sportingguns.com.au/UsedGuns/UsedGuns.asp

 

[Majic]

I linked this thread on the Smith & Wesson Forum and the concensus among some hard core shooters over there was that after 50,000 rounds you could look for some serious wear issues and at 100,000 you can count on it.

First you changed the entire meaning of our discussion as we centered on just a few models, but you said ALL models. You never mentioned anything about how the revolvers were being used, but you did get some answers that supported what others have said here. Then you take the figures from one post and call it the concensus of some.
Have you even shot your revolvers exstensively like these guys do or do you just shoot at a normal double action pace?

BTW...for those who want to know:
http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/006342.html

 

[thatguy]

You know, I give up. Some people are saying they are breaking their guns. OK. I have confessed that I don't know how they're doing it or why it's happening. I understand they seem to be doing this in competition so there you go. That must be the answer. It still sounds wrong to me but it's happening. Other people doing the same thing say they are not experiencing this trouble but some people are so like I said, I don't know where to go from here.

To answer your question, yes I shoot my guns extensively. Not as much per week or month as the competition shooters do, but I have guns I have owned for 30 years, some that were owned by others for much longer before I got them, and they have been subjected to hard and fast DA shooting totaling many more rounds than the 1000 - 2500 that seems to be life expectency of other shooter's guns. Some have fired many thousands of rounds. And I am speaking specifically of .357 N frames since you accuse me of not staying focused on the topic.

Speaking of accusations, I reread the posts and I am a little disappointed that some people felt the need to get a little personal in their responses to my opinions. I don't think I questioned anyone's qualifications or complained about the way others replied but I got some of that. I only offer opinion based on experience and what I have gleamed from other sources. This seems to upset some folks so I am through with this thread. Good luck to all and God bless.