Duty to retreat...why?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have seen the Snowflakes in Hell piece; it is a good one and it sets forth one person's view some aspects of an important distinction.

The writer places the emphasis on "sudden affray" rather than on "self defense". I'm not sure he's entirely on point. If one is attacked and must defend himself, the "affray" is likely sudden.

Some things have changed due to new realities. In those days the Common Law provided for the use of deadly force in instances in which it is not justified in many jurisdictions today. You won't get far in your defense in Colorado if you shoot an arsonist unless the structure is occupied, but you could put an arrow through him in Blackstone's day. If your grain stores were destroyed, starvation was a likely result. Not so today, and the law is more restrictive.

You could also slay a fleeing felon. There were logical reasons for that, also: they couldn't put in place roadblocks by making a radio call then, and there were no helicopters; the fleeing felon, unless killed or seized, was as good as gone. Also, setting back an odometer wasn't a felony in those days.

No, retreat was not required, but those applications of force did not constitute self defense per se.

However, in my lay opinion, the real issue today has to do with the requirement in many jurisdictions that deadly force be "immediately necessary." It seems to me that in a case of self defense, if avoidance or escape is in fact safely possible, the use of deadly force simply cannot be considered necessary to prevent death or serious injury.

Within the home or car, however, the question would seem to be (1) how safe is it for multiple persons to all escape safely at once and (2) escape to where? If the home is not the safest place available and cannot be so maintained, there is no safety--which was set forth in more lofty tones by Blackstone.
 
Most will say because you dont want to kill someone if you dont have to,

I say if they want to run up on me I will throw a little chlorine in the gene pool and sleep better for it at night.

Where legal of course.
 
These things will vary quite a bit from state to state. Here's a recent Florida example:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/keyword/deadly-force

=========================================================
Homeowner justified in shooting death of prowler

By Stephen Hudak, Orlando Sentinel | February 23, 2010
TAVARES – A Lake County homeowner who shot and killed an unarmed prowler in his backyard in November fired lawfully, though the fatal wound hit the intruder in the back, prosecutors said Tuesday. Shane Beil, 41, will not face criminal charges in the Nov. 19 shooting death of Brett Lee Canada, 23, of Mount Plymouth, who had served a pair of prison stints for burglary, grand theft and other property crimes. Assistant State Attorney Bill Gladson cited Florida statutes and supporting court decisions including the so-called "castle doctrine," which says a person may use deadly force to protect life or home or to prevent a "forcible felony."
=========================================================
 
Too many people want to live in a rainbows and butterflies world where we all just get along and violence and death are long forgotten plagues of the past. They can't have the poor disadvantaged criminals being killed but the criminals don't seem to want to stop doing things that should get them killed.

So how do they make their utopia a reality? Pass laws directed at law-abiding citizens (because we are the only one that follow them) and maybe someday everyone will see how nice it is to not have people killing each other.

I don't want to advocate violence, but the fact remains, sometimes some people need to have violence enacted upon them. Especially if they break into occupied houses with evil intentions. Sorry for ranting.
 
AZ, title 13. Note, this was on file BEFORE we enacted Castle Doctrine, which we do have now as well. Emphasis added.
13-411. Justification; use of force in crime prevention; applicability

A. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of arson of an occupied structure under section 13-1704, burglary in the second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508, kidnapping under section 13-1304, manslaughter under section 13-1103, second or first degree murder under section 13-1104 or 13-1105, sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault under section 13-1406, child molestation under section 13-1410, armed robbery under section 13-1904 or aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1 and 2.

B. There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force justified by subsection A of this section.

BTW, 1st degree burglary is armed burglary, 2nd degree is burglary of an occupied structure, including attached garage.
 
I think to rationally decide that duty to retreat is a good idea you have to make assumptions. Some seriously deranged assumptions (these will sound familiar):

1. All gun owners WANT to shoot someone.
2. Nobody can be trusted to use good judgment as to when to the use of lethal force is necessary (in part because of #1 and also because we cannot think without the government).
3. There is always a non-violent way out of any situation.

If you can force yourself to believe these assumptions then you will believe gun owners will shoot randomly at anything and everything within and close to their homes, that we are not capable nor are we entitled to use our own judgment to ascertain the proper way to deal with a threat in our own homes.
You have to remember these are the same law makers that do not see Illegal Immigrants are breaking laws, they see criminals as poor souls who need to be helped, they are victims of poverty and they don't really want to be in your homes, pointing guns at your kids.

If you can swallow those assumptions then yeah, requiring us to retreat makes perfect logical sense.
 
There is no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force justified by subsection A of this section.[Arizona statute on the use of deadly force in crime prevention]
Good thing, too! I would like to have someone explain to me with a straight face just how one would go about using deadly force, which is permitted under Arizona law when it is reasonably believed to be immediately necessary, to prevent another's commission of arson of an occupied structure, burglary in the second or first degree, kidnapping, manslaughter, second or first degree murder, sexual conduct with a minor, sexual assault, child molestation, armed robbery, or aggravated assault, if one were in fact required to retreat!

Just musing, here: for the legislature to have perceived a need to put that no-retreat provision in the law immediately following Subsection A, there must have been some very strange arguments put forth by prosecutors in the past. Just how does one retreat while preventing arson of a occupied structure?

By the way, the stand-your-ground provision also applies to self defense in Arizona.

That's also good, but I can tell you that I personally would try to avoid, de-escalate, evade, or escape, if it were possible to do so, before using deadly force. Strengthens the justification defense, and makes life a whole lot simpler afterwards if it works.
 
The writer places the emphasis on "sudden affray" rather than on "self defense". I'm not sure he's entirely on point. If one is attacked and must defend himself, the "affray" is likely sudden.

He emphasized that to make the point more easily understandble; but he is really talking about the mostly obsolete distinction between justifiable homicide and excusable homicide under the common law.
 
Duty to retreat

Not in michigan,although a drunken man might not be a true threat to the point of use of deadly force,sometimes theres very little time to reason,thank god ive never been in this perdicament,:)POLICE EXERCIZE UNBELIVEABLE RESTRAINT,AND OUT OF RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE YOU CAN TO,I KNOW IF YOU MAKE YOURSELF A SHEEP THE WOLVES WILL EAT YOU,BUT MAKE SHURE ITS A REAL WOLF.
 
Last edited:
Dear Homeowner,
We intend to enter your home this Saturday from 7pm until 10pm. Please vacate the premise for your personal safety as it is your Duty to Retreat. Do not attempt to contact authorities prior to 10PM as we have friends and family who know where you live and will revisit your domicile without prior written notice and retreat will not be possible. We thank you for your cooperation in insuring a safe weekend for all.

Thank you
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top