Economy AR

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If you want a complete rifle ready to go out of the box, the S&W M&P Sport is probably the best value. But if you don't mind putting together a lower yourself, you can get a rifle with more features for the money by putting together any lower (doesn't matter which), and ordering a PSA complete upper.

The main advantage of the PSA, in my mind, is that you can get it in a variety of different setups as far as barrel length/type, gas system length, handguards, etc.; whereas with the M&P you are stuck with only the "M-4gery" setup of a 16" barrel with a carbine-length gas system (which is not really ideal for that length barrel). PSA also has individually high pressure tested and magna-fluxed barrels and bolts... though I wouldn't mistrust a S&W barrel either, as it is made by Thompson Center, a very reputable manufacturer and backed by S&W's outstanding warranty. Also, the S&W has one advantage in that it uses a nitrided ("Melonite") bore and chamber, which will generally last about as long as the PSA's chromed bore and chamber, yet will give better accuracy. The PSA, being mil-spec, has the additional features of a forward assist and a dust cover. Personally I don't think a forward assist is necessary, but I am glad to have the dust cover, especially when I'm out shooting on the sandy riverbank on a windy day.

I have a PSA rifle that I put together back in April, and I am very satisfied with it so far (though I haven't had time to give it much of a serious round count). Mine has a 20" gov't-profile FN barrel. The best groups I've done with it are about 2 MOA with iron sights. I paid right at $700, all told, but it is decked out with Magpul everything (CTR stock, MOE grip, handguard, and trigger guard), so I could have done it for about $100 less if I went with regular GI furniture, so they are pretty much the same price as an M&P.

I have handled and shot those M&P 15's, and they are definitely great rifles, but I don't regret for a minute going with PSA for my own rifle. It let me get the exact barrel/gas/stock setup I wanted, and with all mil-spec features and quality checks. I would (and probably will) buy from them again.
 
They're pretty well all good now. I would look hard at dpms, rock river arms, stag arms, del-ton, and palmetto state armory. Personally I like dpms and rock river.t The only thing about that smith and wesson is the fact that it lacks a dust cover. That's a big no no if you are in harsh conditions and need a reliable firearm. I know this from experience in dusty conditions on our ranch. Trust me on this one, if you only shoot at the range and don't plan to rely heavily on the gun as a go to rig you will be fine.
 
Ther is another option...it is cheap but idk how durable it is and what ur views on polymer is..but plumcrazy makes a complete lower of polymer...super lightweight super cheap...i believe it runs under 150 bucks for a complete lower..just pop on an upper...and u got an AR for 600 bucks or less depending on what upper u get
 
I just don't want a bottom-end jamomatic like I'd tried
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If I won't be hitting really solid AR's until near 2k,
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I don't know which AR you shot that was a jamomatic, but I've never had a single malfunction with 5-6 differnt AR's I've owned over the years and $750 is the most I've paid for any of them. Use decent ammo and magazines and even the cheapest budget rifles seem to work just fine.

I've had good luck with Stag, Rock River and PSA and would trust them to defend myself if needed. I also have one of the budget DPMS rifles that has run 100%, but because of slightly lower quality parts it would be the least desireable of the ones I own for pure SD applications. But I didn't buy that one with that in mind. It is a lightweight, inexpensive carrying around varmit rifle with a scope mounted on it.

You don't have to spend anywhere near $2,000 for a solid AR. A Colt can be had for around $1,100. Many of the $700 guns almost as good for $400 less.
 
Now y'all are talking.

You give me hope. I'll try to do some reading to further educate myself on the varieties of uppers, and what all the different configurations mean. I don't suppose there is a single collected tutorial with benefits of barrel twist ratios, lengths, gas block configurations and everything else?

Thank you ladies and gents.
 
You guys have purchased from PSA before? I've been eyeing them for a while now, seeing as they are based back in the South, but I haven't met anyone who owned one of their guns.
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My experience with PSA products has been very positive. I've built a few of their lower build kits and the quality is the same as any other "mil-spec" manufactuer (Colt, BCM, Spikes, Daniel Defense, etc.). I haven't yet purchased one of their uppers, but have handled a few of them in their two stores in Columbia, SC, and they look very nice indeed. The FN barrels are a plus.

A quick search of these forums will yeild a lot of happy PSA owners. Most complaints tend to center around slow shipping/poor communication during their online sales, rather than any problems of quality with their products.
 
1:7 twist for heavy bullets...1:8 for 55-69 grain bullet 1:9 for 53 and under..most popular is 1:8..16 is as short as i would go....20 will give you a few hundred feet per seco d faster but is usually reserved for max accuracy bench rifles but not allways...and gas block im not to familiar with...easiest way is to google it....find more info you could in a lifetime or just make a post on here
 
Tex4426 said:
1:7 twist for heavy bullets...1:8 for 55-69 grain bullet 1:9 for 53 and under..most popular is 1:8..16 is as short as i would go....20 will give you a few hundred feet per seco d faster but is usually reserved for max accuracy bench rifles but not allways...and gas block im not to familiar with...easiest way is to google it....find more info you could in a lifetime or just make a post on here
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The twist ratio of the barrel really means more in terms of the length of the bullet rather than weight. My Sport shoots 77 gr quite well, and 55 gr open up a bit.
 
Palmetto State Armory

I'll have to agree with the Palmetto State Armory for a "budget" carbine. I picked up a PA-15 for just over $700 dollars at a local gun show and after admittedly limited use, I am very pleased with it. I'm no AR-15 snob, but as noted above, the PSA rifle is closer to a MIL-SPEC carbine than the M&P Sport - if that is important to YOU.
 
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gpjoe said:
I'll have to agree with the Palmetto State Armory for a "budget" carbine. I picked up a PA-15 for just over $700 dollars at a local gun show and after admittedly limited use, I am very pleased with it. I'm no AR-15 snob, but as noted above, the PSA rifle is closer to a MIL-SPEC carbine than the M&P Sport - if that is important to YOU.
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How so? Obviously dust cover and forward assist, but how is one "closer to mil spec" than the other? Do elaborate.
 
How so?
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Well in addition to a chrome-lined barrel and bolt carrier, this pretty much sums it up (in post #13, by madcratebuilder):

The PSA AR's well be much closer to mil-spec quality than any other budget commercial rifle. FN barrels, HPT, MPI 158 bolts. The BCG and barrel is the heart of the gun, the rest is just window dressing.
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Which was also my understanding, but I didn't see a need to repeat it word-for-word.
 
Actually, here is a complete description of the PA-15 that I saved:

Finally, a complete Palmetto State Armory rifle ready to go for one low price. Our M4A1 Standard Carbine starts with one of our Chrome-lined CMV barrels in the versatile M4A1 profile, mated to our forged aluminum upper, and finished off with standard handguards and A2 Flash hider. The forged lower is built with our 6 position Mil-spec size buffer tube and stock, Standard PSA lower parts kit with A2-style grip and aluminum trigger guard. It comes with one 30 Round D&H PSA Magazine (where allowed by law) so all you have to provide is the ammo to start having fun.

Barrel: 16", 4150 Steel, M4A1 profile, 5.56 NATO chamber with a 1:7 right-hand twist , chrome-lined, High pressure Tested and magnetic Particle Inspected, carbine-length gas port, and M4 feedramps. Barrels are finished off with a taper pinned, F-marked, front sight post with sling swivel, standard handguards, an A2 flash hider, and are phosphate coated to Mil-specs.

Upper: Forged 7075-T6 A3 AR upper is made to MIL-SPECS and hard coat anodized black for durability. Featuring machined T marks, and a mil-spec finish. These uppers are made for us right here in the USA, and are marked with the Palmetto State Armory logo on the left side, up front, just below the rail.

Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, MPI and HPT. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo.

Lower: These forged lowers are quality made using material is 7075-T6 and are marked "MULTI" for caliber. Finish is Black Hardcoat Anodize per MIL-8625 Type 3 class 2. Mil-spec-sized buffer tube has 6 adjustment positions, is finished with a Palmetto State Armory M4-style stock and has a staked castle nut. Standard carbine buffer is Black anodized and has the PSA logo on the face. The standard PSA combat trigger has a smooth pull and clean break.
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So yeah, besides the dust cover and forward assist, much closer to Mil-Spec, again, if that is important to the OP.
 
gpjoe said:
Well in addition to a chrome-lined barrel and bolt carrier, this pretty much sums it up (in post #13, by madcratebuilder):



Which was also my understanding, but I didn't see a need to repeat it word-for-word.
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Gotcha. Do they have f marched fsb? Oversized pins, or "standard" ?
Me personally, I prefer melonite over chrome lined. Think Glock treatment to an AR.
But, after reading, they adhere well to the mil spec myth. I say that because mil spec is a minimum requirement for acceptance. I like and appreciate S&Ws "unruly" non adherence and development of non universal standards.

If we are talking durability, melonite by a mile.
If we are talking accuracy out of same length barrels, I'd argue 5r .
Mil Spec? The PSA. But what does that prove?
It's the reason someone buys a DD or Noveske over a Colt. What does mil spec do for you? It makes you feel warm and tingly. Truth is, I had a DPMS Panther 20" that'll shoot circles around either weapon we are talking about, no chrome, no melonite, no mil spec.

What I was asking was, which I should have actually worded, was what does the PSA do that the Sport can't for less money?
 
Well, you didn't say that, so I responded to precisely what you did ask. In my original post I merely stated that the PA-15 was closer to Mil-Spec than the Sport, and it is. Note that in all of my posts I pointed out that it was up to the OP to decide if that was important to him, with emphasis.

I'm merely trying to provide information, based on the research I've done. I could have bought a Sport that day from the same vendor, but spent $100 more for the rifle that suited my wants/needs. You chose a non-Mil-Spec rifle as it suited you. Like anything else, once the research is done, it's really personal preference.
 
Mil spec just means it was made to the specs of military...military required a solid gun that could last three counntless rounds accuracy was not ther main concern...mil spec is not always the best...also noone really needs mil spec either...if u can save 150 bucks for an AR slightly under mil spec then y not save the money...u take care of it it will perform when u need it to
 
Centerfire Systems has AR type rifles that (I believe) theyb are listing as "Interarms" mfg.) Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Interarms just a distributer and importor. Not a manufacturer.

These seem to be pretty reasonably priced rifles (low to mid 600s) for nib.

Anyone know where made and who is the actual maker of these rifles are?
 
gpjoe said:
Well, you didn't say that, so I responded to precisely what you did ask. In my original post I merely stated that the PA-15 was closer to Mil-Spec than the Sport, and it is. Note that in all of my posts I pointed out that it was up to the OP to decide if that was important to him, with emphasis.

I'm merely trying to provide information, based on the research I've done. I could have bought a Sport that day from the same vendor, but spent $100 more for the rifle that suited my wants/needs. You chose a non-Mil-Spec rifle as it suited you. Like anything else, once the research is done, it's really personal preference.
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No, I know. That's my mistake. But, be forewarned, mil spec isn't the best.We live in a time where govt cuts cost, remember that.

Other than that, you called me out, and we're for most parts correct.

But, I'd own the Sport over the PSA.

I'd own the PSA over the Colt, purely on customer service.
We are not fighting a war with our ARs just yet, so I want bang for the buck.
 
Tex4426 said:
Mil spec just means it was made to the specs of military...military required a solid gun that could last three counntless rounds accuracy was not ther main concern...mil spec is not always the best...also noone really needs mil spec either...if u can save 150 bucks for an AR slightly under mil spec then y not save the money...u take care of it it will perform when u need it to
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+1,000. There's better to be had from those who exceed or try to better their rifles in a cheaper manner. Sports aren't the best, but they're doing pretty good. If red Dawn occurs, I'm not under gunned with a Sport. I'm an AK guy, and to say that I love what S&W is doing is an understatement. They aren't reinventing anything, but they're putting reliable, cost effective arms in the hands of citizens who care.
 
No, I know. That's my mistake. But, be forewarned, mil spec isn't the best.We live in a time where govt cuts cost, remember that.
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while it's certainly true that you can purchase things that are better than 'mil-spec', this is misleading if you are implying that most commercial AR15s are better than mil-spec just because gov't procurement normally awards to the lowest bidder THAT MEETS the spec.
 
taliv said:
while it's certainly true that you can purchase things that are better than 'mil-spec', this is misleading if you are implying that most commercial AR15s are better than mil-spec just because gov't procurement normally awards to the lowest bidder THAT MEETS the spec.
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Never did, nor would I dream of. There are several manufacturers that exceed mil spec qualifications, many of which do not have contractual agreements with the US armed forces. But, there are also just as much if not more that meet none or marginal at best. Materials, manufacturing practices, and labor involved can make or break a product in the consumers eye and dictate what they will buy.
But if the powers that be could arm the proud with the best, do you think they would? That's a politics question not fit for this thread. GIs are given what they're told. Take it for what it's worth.
 
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meanmrmustard said:
How so? Obviously dust cover and forward assist, but how is one "closer to mil spec" than the other? Do elaborate.
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Mil-spec is about the material used in making the part, and more important the manufacturing process.

Mil-spec barrel made from 4150 CVM steel, MPI tested, chrome lined. Bolt carrier is 8620 steel, shoot peened, heat treated, chrome lined bore. Bolt is C158 steel, HPT, MPI.

4150 vs 4140 barrels, 4140 well wear faster, does it matter to 99.9% of civilian shooters? I doubt it.

A commercial bolt carrier is probably 8620, heat treated and chrome bore but they leave out the shoot peen process. It is still going to work in a AR but this manufacturing process well have a higher failure rate.

Pretty much all parts meet the mil-spec for dimension. Some meet the mil-spec for material and method of manufacturer and some exceed this. Generally the better the material the longer the "reliable life span".

This is more important to the guy that shoots 2.5k a month vs the guy who shoots 200 rounds a year.
 
I have been extremely pleased with the fit and function of my Doublestar AR. Its been 100% reliable so far, and I've used it deer hunting successfully. I have no regrets about the $650 I spent on it, and would do it again in a heartbeat (in fact, I may very well may if I find on in 6.8)
 
madcratebuilder said:
Mil-spec is about the material used in making the part, and more important the manufacturing process.

Mil-spec barrel made from 4150 CVM steel, MPI tested, chrome lined. Bolt carrier is 8620 steel, shoot peened, heat treated, chrome lined bore. Bolt is C158 steel, HPT, MPI.

4150 vs 4140 barrels, 4140 well wear faster, does it matter to 99.9% of civilian shooters? I doubt it.

A commercial bolt carrier is probably 8620, heat treated and chrome bore but they leave out the shoot peen process. It is still going to work in a AR but this manufacturing process well have a higher failure rate.

Pretty much all parts meet the mil-spec for dimension. Some meet the mil-spec for material and method of manufacturer and some exceed this. Generally the better the material the longer the "reliable life span".

This is more important to the guy that shoots 2.5k a month vs the guy who shoots 200 rounds a year.
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I'm aware of parameters, as stated several posts ago. I asked the gentleman for his take on the difference between two rifles.

See, I hate the term mil spec, and I don't think many FULLY understand its definition. It's why I cling to the Kalishnakov way of life!

But, thanks for posting something anyway.
 
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Davek1977 said:
I have been extremely pleased with the fit and function of my Doublestar AR. Its been 100% reliable so far, and I've used it deer hunting successfully. I have no regrets about the $650 I spent on it, and would do it again in a heartbeat (in fact, I may very well may if I find on in 6.8)
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Or just get a 6.8 upper.
 
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