Eddystone 1903 barreled action?

[Bull Nutria]

A friend ask me to evaluate subject SN843967. it is stamp US Model of 19??. it looks like 1917 after removing screw . it has no magazine but has complete bolt and firing pin. it cocks and trigger releases, safety works. no stock.

1- is this barreled action worth using to build another rifle? assuming it is serviceable
2- what is this barreled action worth?
3- any other comments or suggestions are solicited.

Bull

 

[Slamfire]

Without pictures it is impossible to evaluate condition. Eddystone built M1917 rifles for the United States. There are P14 rifles on the same action, built for the British, in 303 British.

1- is this barreled action worth using to build another rifle? assuming it is serviceable

The value of these rifles is if they are in full military condition. Sporterized versions are not worth the value of a full military rifle. Gunbroker has a nice looking version right now, the rear sight wings have been milled off, nice looking maple stock, http://www.gunbroker.com/item/613700712 asking price is $400.00, no bidders right now. The last the CMP had these rifles, they sold for $500.00. A full military version, look at the prices on Gunbroker, prices around $700 to $800. Trying to restore a parts rifle to full military condition is very expensive, try searching for parts, like stocks, and all the other pieces that are missing, to understand the cost of restoration.

Building the rifle into a useable sporterized rifle can be done, aftermarket stocks are available. If you simply put the action into a sporter stock, used the irons, you might have a workable rifle for under $200.

Anything more is cost prohibitive. It is very expensive to mill off the rear sight wings, have the receiver drilled and tapped, sight base installed, new barrel installed, blued, new stock, etc, etc. It is cheaper to buy a nice, new, rifle from Ruger, Savage, than to take a military action and convert it into a sporter.

As for worth, heck if I know. Barreled actions have value for the parts content. Lots of parts are being sold on fleabay. The receiver is a bugger because selling it requires going through an FFL.

 

[stoky]

Eddystones are known for having batches of production with sketchy metallurgy, purportedly from the NJ (hint) plant paying by piece work, motivating workers to heat the billets hotter and faster. Magnaflux can be used to check for cracks. Another method is to apply fast evaporating liquids and look for cracks as they dry.

 

[AlexanderA]

it is stamp US Model of 19??. it looks like 1917 after removing screw

From this, it appears that the receiver ring was drilled and tapped for a scope mount. This alone drops its collector value (as potentially restorable to military configuration) to zero. Have the rear sight "ears" been milled off as well?

An untouched barreled action (restorable) could be worth as much as $300. Complete M1917's typically sell for $800 at gun shows.

 

[AlexanderA]

Eddystones are known for having batches of production with sketchy metallurgy, purportedly from the NJ (hint) plant paying by piece work, motivating workers to heat the billets hotter and faster. Magnaflux can be used to check for cracks. Another method is to apply fast evaporating liquids and look for cracks as they dry.

The Eddystone plant was in Pennsylvania (a former Baldwin Locomotive Works plant). There is nothing wrong with the metallurgy of Eddystone receivers. Some of the barrels were torqued on too tight. This was not a problem until they were rebarreled in WW2. The cracks appeared when the original barrels were wrenched off. (The proper way to remove an original Eddystone barrel is to make a relief cut in the barrel just ahead of the receiver, on a lathe.) An Eddystone rifle that still has its original barrel should be OK. The cracks are found exclusively on guns with barrels marked "JA" (for Johnson Automatics) or "HS" (for High Standard). These were WW2 rebarrels. Even so, the cracks are still relatively rare.

M1917 rifles made by Winchester or Remington, even rebarreled ones, don't have this problem.

 

[GBExpat]

What is the condition of the bore?

Provide a couple/few well-lit & focused pics here and we should be able to provide more informed opinions of its market value.

 

[LoonWulf]

Again pictures are required!!!:d

I watch sporterized auctions on GB, i like sporterized guns, and good to excellent 1917 sporters usually go for 350-500 (or more if really nice) depending on the quality of the work. Ones with cut down stocks and minor reworks usually 250-300. And bubba dunnits with missing pieces of obviously poorly done modding still go for 175-200 usually.

 

[BrocLuno]

Yup, pictures needed...

I have worked on some Eddystone rifles. Sporter and Mil-Spec. They are big tough heavy duty actions. The cracks were from using machines to install and torque the barrels during assembly. They got over torqued to make the index marks line up. When unwound, they cracked. They became the famous Cracked Eddies

I have one of each. Fine and cracked. The thing is they are large and long. So they make candidates for conversion to say 375 H&H or something similar. If you want to build a dangerous game bolt rifle, they are a good place to start. If you are just going to shoot '06, there are better options.

Williams Gunsight Co used to offer a milling service to remove the rear "ears" and contour the receiver to Remington curvature so you could mount any sight you wanted. I don't think they do this anymore ... Getting it done w/o a dedicated horizontal mill is not easy or cheap. Lots of them were Bubba ground-off in the back yard with a hand grinder. They will not mount sights well ...

Rebarreled receivers often have two groove barrels. Originals all had four or five grooved barrels. A good original barrel is worth $100 on eBay. Trigger group, maybe $25. Complete bolt, prolly $75~$150 deepening on condition.

So you see why we are asking for pictures? Way too many details to sort out w/o visuals ...

 

[Bull Nutria]

After some research on internet and some very close inspection of this 1917, I discovered the infamous crack in the receiver. I brought it by my local gunsmith and he verified that the receiver is unserviceable and dangerous. the barrel is original but has been recontoured and the "ears" have been machined off. it has a Redfield front sight. He offered me $15 for it as a parts gun as the bolt and trigger are intact. Evidently the original owner did a lot of work on the gun before the crack was discovered.

thanks for all the info,
Bull

 

[Slamfire]

Eddystones are known for having batches of production with sketchy metallurgy, purportedly from the NJ (hint)

plant paying by piece work, motivating workers to heat the billets hotter and faster. Magnaflux can be used to check for cracks. Another method is to apply fast evaporating liquids and look for cracks as they dry.

I agree with this. While we do not have the documentation that we have on the low number 03 Springfields, which were overheated in the forge shop, we do have one post relaying a worker's experience at the time that a similar situation was going on at Eddystone. Workers at Eddystone and Springfield Armory were being paid piece rate and it would be in the worker's economic advantage to stamp parts out faster by heating the billets up. What we do know is that this was a pre Vacuum tube era, and the primarily sensors used in factories were hearing, taste, touch, smell, and vision. Many today have no idea how primitive the pre vacuum tube era was, but, they have an idea of how primitive the 3G era is. Since I am pre 3G, I have no idea what this means, but it must be important. LOL.

Another issue with the metals of the era was the variance in composition. The stuff varied in composition and had a lot of "slag".


For decades shill Gunwriters have been "educating" us with terms such as "Old World Craftsmanship", and "German Technology". These terms are undefined, actually, meaningless advertising terms. For the World War 1 period, German technology was better on the average than anyone else's technology, but the technology of the era was still pre vacuum tube, early 1900's technology.


The following data is taken from Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 by Dieter Storz


Inside Dieter’s book , on page 103, are the material specifications for the M98 Mauser. The material looks to be a manganese steel alloy, with copper added for easy machining.

Carbon LT 0.40%
Manganese LT 0.90%
Copper LT 0.18%
Silicon LT 0.30%
Phosphorous LT 0.04%
Sulphur LT 0.06%


On another forum, this information was posted. These are the results of a 1996 "core" assay of a generic WW-I era 1898 Mauser receiver:

Carbon: 0.29%
Sulfur: 0.022%
Phosphorus: 0.019%
Manganese: 0.45%
Silicon: 0.16%
Nickel: 0.05%
Chromium 0.02%
Molybdenum: <0.01% (trace)
Vanadium <0.01% (trace)
Copper 0.17%
Columbium: <0.01% (trace)

The 1996 "core" assay of a WW-I era 1898 Mauser bolt:

Carbon: 0.18%
Sulfur: 0.018%
Phosphorus: 0.014%
Manganese: 0.76%
Silicon: 0.23%
Nickel: 0.29%
Chromium: 0.06%
Molybdenum: <0.01% (trace)
Copper 0.15%
Aluminum: 0.02%

Everything other than carbon, manganese, copper, silicon, phosphorous is crap. Sulphur was undesirable as I understand it. These trace elements found in the steel are contaminants that found their way into the steel, as a result of the primitive production controls and technology of the era. Some of it could have come from scrap drives, which was going on in the US at the time, with everything being thrown into the ladle. I do know that foundries recycled their own scrap, and that always raised the amount of impurities in the mix.

The famous gun smith, Howe, warns in his book that M1917 barrels are not appropriate for conversion to the 300 H&H magnum because of the "stringers" in the metal.

I have looked at the properties of 2340 steel, and the book properties are excellent. It is an excellent nickle steel, only went away because it required 4 1/2 pounds of nickel for every 100 pound billet. Nickel is a relatively rare strategic material. Later alloys dramatically dropped the nickel content. There is no particular reason for receivers made of good 2340 material, properly forged and heat treated, to crack when the original barrel is taken off. Good 2340 is a tough material, not a brittle material. It is my opinion that receiver cracking is positive proof of a receiver being exposed to too much heat somewhere in the factory.

None of this makes any difference to those who hold a romantic vision of the past and worship the objects of the past as religious icons. Woolly headed ideas of a better past ignore the realities of the technology of the time, and the short comings of the period.