Education on Muzzle-loaders

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Hello, All.

I have ZERO experience with anything muzzle-loading or black powder-related. Some of you may have seen my thread under "hunting" about having moved to Ohio in the last few years, but never having gone hunting here. Whilst looking into it for this year, I discovered that my .44mag carbine and .30-06 are not permitted.

I know a decent amount about shotguns, but nothing on muzzle-loaders. I may or may not be able to pick one up before hunting season this year (likely not), but am interested for next year if I'm still in this state. So with that in mind, I'm really not interested in a big pricey project to be able to hunt in a state in which I reside only temporarily.

So, if I were interested in picking up and learning a muzzle-loader for next year, what would I need, and what would I be wise to avoid?

I've noticed that you can pick some up for well under $200, some under $100. I guess reasonable deer accuracy up to 100 yards would suffice my purposes... Preferably something relatively easy to learn, use, clean, etc. Would something like this http://www.armslist.com/posts/2213094/akron-muzzle-loaders-for-sale--muzzle-loader do the trick, or will it just be a disappointment?

Any responses from caliber to action type, bullet/ball, etc... would be appreciated. I've tried looking some of this stuff up, but it's quite overwhelming. Any help I can get from you guys would be great!

 

[SleazyRider]

You didn't say if you were interested in traditional muzzleloading or the modern in-line variety. Myself, personally, I enjoy traditional muzzleloaders because of the challenge and fun-factor. And if you are of the same ilk, I'd give a good hard look at the ubiquitous Thompson-Center percussion rifle in .50 caliber. It's the typical entry-level Chevrolet of the muzzleloading world--reliable, tough-as-nails, easy to get parts for, and affordable. It's a great place to start, and even end. I think you'll be amazed at the accuracy and take-down power of a .50 caliber patched round ball.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I would recommend that you look for a Lyman Plains Rifle in .54 caliber. It is almost foolproof under 100 yards as long as you take the time to learn how to properly shoot it. Don't worry as much about the price as the quality. A crappy $100 rifle will severely dampen your enthusiasm.....

 

[Old Fuff]

Go to: www.dixiegunworks.com and buy a copy of their soft-cover catalog. Some 700 pages of substantial black powder products and information. Cost I believe is still $5.00 ... You'll find many, many questions are answered.

 

[Pancho]

Where are you in Ohio?

I ask this question because Ohio offers a varied terrain. North East all along the East the Southeast along the Ohio river West to Cincinnati is hilly and dense in underbrush(figure on 50 yd. shots). The majority of the rest of the state is flat and offers 100yd plus shots.
Even though I'm a traditionalist and like sidelocks I can understand someone who just wants to extend their season but doesn't want to get heavily invested.
I would consider the Rossi based break-downs, 209 primer guns cheap easy to use, clean and accurate enough at the shorter ranges.

 

[frankenstein406]

Look for a cheap used cva wolf magnum. I got one at a pawn shop for $45 with a little bit of rust in the bore. Shoots great and is a lot of fun. Pick one up, its a good excuse to be in the woods.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

You didn't say if you were interested in traditional muzzleloading or the modern in-line variety.

I have no idea what those things are, or what makes them different.

Ohio offers a varied terrain.

Northeast... Mostly flat with some decent hills occasionally.

............

Sidelocks, traditional muzzle-loading, in-lines... I need more information on this stuff. I don't know what they mean. I'll try to look them up when I get some time later today. Any help you all can provide on their differences would be great.

.45, .50, .54... Are they like .25-06, 6.5swede, and .260? Performance hardly negligible? Or are there big differences?

Oh... and what's the recoil on these things compared to a typical .30-06?

 

[CraigC]

I need more information on this stuff.

Do you want a traditional, wood stocked, blued or brown octagon barreled, iron sighted rifle that shoots lead conicals or round balls with real blackpowder or do you want a modern, synthetic stocked, scope sighted rifle that shoots modern jacketed bullets in a plastic sabot and modern blackpowder substitutes? I know you're just starting to learn but I'm sure you already have some thoughts on this. The rifle you linked-to is a modern inline.

 

[rodwha]

A side lock uses a percussion cap instead of a primer. It's not as hot of a spark, but plenty hot enough to ignite black powder and all but one substitute powder (Blackhorn 209). Many are designed for shooting patched round balls, but there are some designed for full bore bullets (conicals) or saboted pistol bullets.

An inline uses a 209 shotgun primer. These rifles are a faster twisted rifle for shooting sabots or conicals. Shooting patched round balls is quite difficult, but possible.

I'd suggest a Lyman's rifle if you want a more traditional style. I chose their Deerstalker model as it was fairly compact and light weight, and as a first rifle could work as a stalking rifle if I wanted to. I thoroughly enjoy my rifle. I'm sure it's not as fine as an expensive model, but it does what it's supposed to and at ~$400.

When I first became interested in a muzzleloader I looked at the information on a round ball. With it's light weight and low BC it showed very questionable numbers beyond 50 yds, and so I came in thinking I'd need a modern projectile. But a lot of time spent on a traditional forum proved that despite the low numbers a RB works wonders out to about 125 yds or so. I've since focused on patches and balls for this rifle.

I chose .50 cal when I chose my rifle as the accessories and sabot/bullets available are astounding. It's what the inlines are. A .50 cal will work on any medium game, as well as large game if the powder charge is fairly stout and the range fairly short, but if you aren't comfortable shooting a ball at large game you can always drop a conical instead. Knowing what I know now I'd likely choose a .54 cal to use balls through though.

If all you'd likely hunt are whitetails a .45 cal may be all you'd need/want. Some consider it a minimal caliber with ball.

The recoil in my 7.5 lb rifle with a 177 grn .490" PRB is nothing near what a 30-06 Spg would provide. It's more than a 30-30 Win though. I've bought some 320 grn conicals to try out, and am curious how it effects the recoil.

An inline can generally handle a little more powder than a side lock or flintlock.

This is my muzzleloader:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/deerstalker-rifle.php

It's mostly traditional, but it does have a recoil pad and fiber optic sights.

 

[Crawdad1]

How far from Lodi Ohio are you? Go there they got everything and great people to guide you.

http://www.logcabinshop.com/



But don't under any circumstances look at, pick up or lust after the original John and Caleb Vincent rifles they have there.

 

[CraigC]

That looks like a really cool shop! We had to put off our road trip across the northeast this year but I want to find more shops like that to stop at along the way.

 

[rcoolbaugh]

I'm new to muzzleloaders too, I wanted something to play around with without going too wild. I bought an inexpensive CVA Buckhorn at Walmart, $147 .... they had pyrodex, 209 primers and saboted bullets on the shelf. With the open sights I'm shooting sub 3" groups at 70 yards with no problem. I walked out of the store with everything I needed for ~ $250, that included a cleaning kit, powder, primers, bullets, powder measure (if you go that route instead of pellets). I've started using the 320gn Lee "REAL" bullets that I cast, I really like them, easy to load and good accuracy. The rifle is easy to clean and a breech plug to use percussion caps instead of primers is available.

Is it a high end rifle .... NO, Am I happy with it .... YES.

 

[Crawdad1]

Craig, that is one of the best shops I've ever visited. I've shot in competitions against some of those fellers and those Ohio boys know their black powder. I've learned to bring my 'A' game when they show up.

They have a big library of black powder books and journals there also.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

How far from Lodi Ohio are you? Go there they got everything and great people to guide you.

Weird... I was actually in Lodi today. LOL... I'll go check them out next time I have occasion to head that way.

I'd suggest a Lyman's rifle if you want a more traditional style. I chose their Deerstalker model as it was fairly compact and light weight, and as a first rifle could work as a stalking rifle if I wanted to. I thoroughly enjoy my rifle. I'm sure it's not as fine as an expensive model, but it does what it's supposed to and at ~$400.

OK, so some things are starting to make more sense to me now. That's a nice-looking rifle, and pretty traditional-looking. So it's a side-lock that uses percussion caps instead of primers. You like to use patched round balls, but conicals are also able to be used? Very cool.

Do you want a traditional, wood stocked, blued or brown octagon barreled, iron sighted rifle that shoots lead conicals or round balls with real blackpowder or do you want a modern, synthetic stocked, scope sighted rifle that shoots modern jacketed bullets in a plastic sabot and modern blackpowder substitutes?

Hm... I'm a big iron sight fan, but my "tastes" for iron sights would probably make it too $$$ for this potential project. Either irons or a scope would probably suit me well. As for the other stuff, I probably don't care about wood vs. synthetic... Not sure on projectile type yet, but modern jacketed bullets sounds appealing.

Overall, I'm thinking simpler the better. Perhaps down the line I could get more into the coolness factor; but the truth is that I'd just want to be able to hunt. Something simple and inexpensive without being cheap crap.

 

[RandyRay41]

I have the CVA Accura V2 .50 cal. Topped with a 3X9 Nikon BDC. Shoot Barnes EZ sabots or the CVA power belts in 245 gr ( they are easier to load). I tend to use 3-50 gr pellets of 777 powder which give very impressive velocities. I have it sighted in about 2"high at 100 yrds with puts me a 0" at 150 yrds. And a few inches low at 200. But the accuracy starts to deminish past 150. It shoots a 5 shot group in the 1-1 1/2 " range at 100 yrds. A lot of people get better accuracy with 110 gr of 777.

This is a fantastic rifle and very easy to maintain due to the QRBP. Quick release breech plug. It unscrews with your fingers and needs no tools. Not sure of your budget but the v2 has not let me down. You can also get a blackhorn 209 breech plug that allows you to shoot buckhorn 209 powder. It is almost as clean as modern smokeless powder but it can be a pain to ignite if every thing is not just right. A 209 magnum primer usually does the trick for me.

Since you are not new to firearms, just BP, you should know that quality comes with an expense. I bought this rifle about 3 yrs ago and it was around $700 for gun and scope. The price has fallen and other newer models are out. But it is my favorite inline shooter.

There is a forum. Www.frontiermuzzleloading.com You can get information on rifles there. May even be some for sale.

 

[rodwha]

I can also use saboted bullets too. Since my grooves are rather deep I may find that a wad may be needed though. Not a big deal.

 

[J-Bar]

Buy one of Sam Fadala's excellent references on black powder guns and techniques. You can usually find one at a bookstore, or on Amazon, new or used. Read it before buying anything.

 

[Whacked]

I used to have a more traditional BP rifle, similar to what rodwha linked.
It was a kit, made by CVA if I remember correctly.
Awesome shooter, wish I never sold it.
My one and only complaint is that I never could get it properly cleaned so I had to keep after it so it wouldn't rust. Not sure what I was doing wrong and at that time, never heard of moose milk (Balistol + water).

Cabela's has a clearance sale on a CVA Wolf for $110, I ordered one yesterday. backordered but I should get it in a couple weeks. I've shot a inline before and the removable breech appeals to me for easy cleaning.

eventually I'll get another traditional BP rifle and perhaps even a flintlock, but thats down the road a bit. I want another 1860 first

 

[Pancho]

The only inlines I have are break-action,a Rossi, a Lyman Mustang and a LHR Redemption. the bolt action guns never appealed to me because the break-acton is easier to clean and inspect. The only one I'd not recommend is the Rossi because of the collapsable ramrod. Fine at the range but a pain when hunting.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

OK, I've done some research. I don't think I'm interested in flintlock at the moment, perhaps in the future. Caplocks sound more interesting to me, but honestly, the in-lines sound the most interesting. Where I stand, this won't be about the fun of shooting, nostalgia, etc... I would just need something simple with which I could legally hunt in Ohio. When I start looking at the caplocks and flintlocks, I think they look cool and fun and all; but when I switch to thinking about hunting, I think I'd rather just use a shotgun because they're much simpler and I have experience with them. With the in-lines, though, I have a hard time deciding between that or shotgun. They also seem cheaper, which is intriguing to my situation.

So, considering that I'm mostly looking for an in-line, what should I be looking for? I guess .50 cal makes the most sense, though the others would certainly work. I'm looking for as cheap as possible without being dissatisfied. I hate that I'm saying that, but it's true. I'm going to have to sell this idea to the family accountant.

 

[rodwha]

I think all inlines are .50 cal. If not the lion's share are, and there is a plethora of stuff foe that caliber, which is one reason why I chose .50 cal for my side lock.

You mentioned looking for inexpensive. Here are a few ideas for you. You can try lead conicals or lead paper patched bullets. In the long run if you cast them yourself it'll eventually become very inexpensive, especially if you buy Lee casting equipment. $21 for a mold, $33 for a pot, $6 for a ladle. Lead costs $1/lb for me at the scrap yard. 7000 grains to a pound would create 21.875 Lee 320 grn REALs. That's less than $0.05 a piece.

If you don't want to get into conicals or paper patched bullets and do want to spend the money on sabots you could find heavier .44/.45 cal pistol bullets of lead. And of course you could cast them up as well.

The loose powder is much cheaper than pellets. It'll take a bit of experimenting to find a good accurate load. But shooting is half of the fun!

I used to buy 1 pound of powder and a few tins of caps at a time at BassPro or the LGS, but when they ran dry for a spell I found that the HAZMAT fee can be rendered nil by purchasing 3 pounds of powder at Grafs. Their powder is cheaper, but it takes a few to balance the fees. And there's no driving! Comes straight to your door.

Check out these places for your shooting accessories:

http://www.grafs.com/

http://www.powderinc.com/

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

There are others worth mentioning...

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

if you look for an in-line that is old enough to still use percussion caps instead of the "newer" 209 shotgun primers, then you can probably get it for a song. Most people out there will either be looking for something traditional or the latest and greatest. If you shoot real black powder you will have no problem igniting it with a plain old fashion percussion cap.

If you find someone local who has gone to pyrodex pellets and 209 primers there is a good chance they will throw in the loose powder and caps they have with the deal for nothing.

I'd expect you can find something like that for under $100

The link you posted looks like it's sold.

I'll PM you a link of a Thompson Center for sale for $65 (it's not Mine), just found the add. If its not been abused you cant go wrong with a TC for $65 to start out