Eerie bank robbery in Erie
- Thread starter jimpeel
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TheeBadOne
Member
Ask the EOD boys if you'd recommend using a knife to remove a bomb...
Where did the suspect once ask either a knife or to be allowed to try to remove it himself. He asked for "someone" to remove it, as in a qualified person, which is what everyone was waiting for.
Where did the suspect once ask either a knife or to be allowed to try to remove it himself. He asked for "someone" to remove it, as in a qualified person, which is what everyone was waiting for.
Thumper
Member
No kidding...it could have gone off or something.
TheeBadOne
Member
Again, ask someone in EOD if a knife is a standard EOD tool...
The bomb was "Hung by the neck". Why do you even need a knife? Couldn't he just have taken it off if he wanted?
The bomb was "Hung by the neck". Why do you even need a knife? Couldn't he just have taken it off if he wanted?
Thumper
Member
Yes, TBO, we all know that conductive material is not the best for use around explosives...but what's the worst that could have happened?
In hindsight, of course they should have given him some way to cut the device off himself. That's the benefit of hindsight.
All that said, I think the guys on scene did the best they could with what they knew.
In hindsight, of course they should have given him some way to cut the device off himself. That's the benefit of hindsight.
All that said, I think the guys on scene did the best they could with what they knew.
[blockquote](tbo) Where did the suspect once ask either a knife or to be allowed to try to remove it himself. He asked for "someone" to remove it, as in a qualified person, which is what everyone was waiting for.[/blockquote]
Someone wants me to do something. I don't want to do it; maybe I'm just mean or maybe it's dangerous. What's my first thought? "You can do it yourself if you want."
Someone wants me to do something. I don't want to do it; maybe I'm just mean or maybe it's dangerous. What's my first thought? "You can do it yourself if you want."
FWIW, the FBI has released a picture of the bomb collar:
Looks like one half of king-kong's handcuff. Wasn't going to be cut off with a knife, from the looks of it. Poor guy didn't have a chance.
Whether or not the device was custom fabricated (or ginned up from parts), should give the investigators a lot of clues as to its origin.
Looks like one half of king-kong's handcuff. Wasn't going to be cut off with a knife, from the looks of it. Poor guy didn't have a chance.
Whether or not the device was custom fabricated (or ginned up from parts), should give the investigators a lot of clues as to its origin.
I guess I was going too far by suggesting there was a deeper motive involved. Tyme, it looks like you were right that the bomb was clearly designed to simply do in the wearer.
Tyme, in regard to your statements about risking my life to save others. I work as a firefighter, so this comes as my job description. I have no problem taking SOME degree of risk to help or save others. But I am not going to throw my life away in an effort that I am untrained for, or something that is hopeless. There is a big difference between risking your life and throwing your life away. A non-life threatening example might be me offering my time to help you fix your transmission when neither one of us has any idea what we are doing and have no instructions to go by. I may have the best of intentions. My heart is in the right place. But I would be willing to bet that at best we won't accomplish anything, and at worse cause you more problems and more expense than you had to begin with. It isn't a question of my not wanting to help people, it is a question of whether I am capable of helping them or am I just agrevating the problem. Over the last 20 years I have worked as a paramedic. I have had more than one occasion where I simply wasn't sure what to do. My findings were not conclusive. My plan of treatment was not clear. The signs and symptoms of the patient were vague or unusual. Instead of just doing SOMETHING and risk it being the wrong thing, I simply did what I know would help the patient and quickly got the patient to an emergency room where they had more diagnostic equipment and more education to diagnose the problem and treat it correctly. I distinctly remember a call many years ago where I thought I knew what was going on with the patient but I wasn't sure. Something didn't seem right. I called the hospital on the radio and talked to a doctor and he agreed that I should give drug "Z". I had a gut feeling that I shouldn't do that. I didn't know why, but my gut told me not to. So, I didn't. When we got to the hospital, it turned out that what I thought was wrong with the patient was incorrect, and the treatment that I was considering and that the doctor ordered would have almost certainly killed the patient. I did only the very minimum to help this patient, but by doing nothing more, I possibly saved this persons life. When dealing with people's lives, I early on realized that if I wasn't 100% sure, I would only what I was SURE would benefit the person involved. This type of call is very infrequent. In 20 years and tens of thousands of calls I might have had a half dozen or so.
Sometimes not doing something is the better course of action than taking a wild shot in the dark.
Speaking of shots in the dark: as was mentioned, it doesn't look like taking the handcuffs off the prisioner and giving him a knife would have accomplished anything. The cops that were THERE on the scene very well might have had a better idea of what was going on than we did. We were quick to jump all over the cops from the comfort of our computer. I am just as guilty of this as anyone ever has been. But, it has been proven to me over and over that a lot of the time, I don't have enough information to form a sensible conclusion.
Tyme, in regard to your statements about risking my life to save others. I work as a firefighter, so this comes as my job description. I have no problem taking SOME degree of risk to help or save others. But I am not going to throw my life away in an effort that I am untrained for, or something that is hopeless. There is a big difference between risking your life and throwing your life away. A non-life threatening example might be me offering my time to help you fix your transmission when neither one of us has any idea what we are doing and have no instructions to go by. I may have the best of intentions. My heart is in the right place. But I would be willing to bet that at best we won't accomplish anything, and at worse cause you more problems and more expense than you had to begin with. It isn't a question of my not wanting to help people, it is a question of whether I am capable of helping them or am I just agrevating the problem. Over the last 20 years I have worked as a paramedic. I have had more than one occasion where I simply wasn't sure what to do. My findings were not conclusive. My plan of treatment was not clear. The signs and symptoms of the patient were vague or unusual. Instead of just doing SOMETHING and risk it being the wrong thing, I simply did what I know would help the patient and quickly got the patient to an emergency room where they had more diagnostic equipment and more education to diagnose the problem and treat it correctly. I distinctly remember a call many years ago where I thought I knew what was going on with the patient but I wasn't sure. Something didn't seem right. I called the hospital on the radio and talked to a doctor and he agreed that I should give drug "Z". I had a gut feeling that I shouldn't do that. I didn't know why, but my gut told me not to. So, I didn't. When we got to the hospital, it turned out that what I thought was wrong with the patient was incorrect, and the treatment that I was considering and that the doctor ordered would have almost certainly killed the patient. I did only the very minimum to help this patient, but by doing nothing more, I possibly saved this persons life. When dealing with people's lives, I early on realized that if I wasn't 100% sure, I would only what I was SURE would benefit the person involved. This type of call is very infrequent. In 20 years and tens of thousands of calls I might have had a half dozen or so.
Sometimes not doing something is the better course of action than taking a wild shot in the dark.
Speaking of shots in the dark: as was mentioned, it doesn't look like taking the handcuffs off the prisioner and giving him a knife would have accomplished anything. The cops that were THERE on the scene very well might have had a better idea of what was going on than we did. We were quick to jump all over the cops from the comfort of our computer. I am just as guilty of this as anyone ever has been. But, it has been proven to me over and over that a lot of the time, I don't have enough information to form a sensible conclusion.
Waitone
Member
I was one who began asking obvious question. It is clear to me now LE did what they could. There was no way the poor guy could have cut the bomb off.
Another lesson learned in "journalism." You will never get all relevant information in a timely manner to draw conclusions. In all the reportin of the incident I never heard a reference to the nature of how the bomb was attached. Was it known by the reports but deemed unnecessary detail which would confuse the poor, stupid news consumer? Don't know, but I suspect full details were not yet available.
Another lesson learned in "journalism." You will never get all relevant information in a timely manner to draw conclusions. In all the reportin of the incident I never heard a reference to the nature of how the bomb was attached. Was it known by the reports but deemed unnecessary detail which would confuse the poor, stupid news consumer? Don't know, but I suspect full details were not yet available.
TheeBadOne
Member
I think what best describes what occured as soon as this story broke is;
jimpeel
Member
I have been the most critical one here and for that I owe an apology to all concerned.
I was a resident of Los Angeles when the LAPD turned and ran leaving us to our own devices.
I was there when the LAPD put out a ban on the sale of ammo.
I was there when the LAPD put out a ban on the sale of firearms.
They barricaded themselves in their stations and took a bunker mentality. I saw the sandbagged positions in front of the Rampart Division with my own eyes.
So if I come to these boards jaded it is not without cause. I know what its like to be abandoned.
Conversely, I was a resident of MA when the N. Hollywood shootout occurred. I called the N. Hollywood Division of the LAPD and spoke to the Watch Commander. I told him that when I saw that car go down the throat of that guy in a move that was reminiscent of the old LAPD it made me downright proud. I told him that I had been critical of the LAPD since they abandoned us but that this was one of the truly proud moments in LAPD history. I asked him to congratulate his guys and give them a slap on the back from me. He was appreciative of my comments and said he would pass them on.
Then the Rampart Division debacle happened and put them back on track. SOP as it were.
I was a resident of Los Angeles when the LAPD turned and ran leaving us to our own devices.
I was there when the LAPD put out a ban on the sale of ammo.
I was there when the LAPD put out a ban on the sale of firearms.
They barricaded themselves in their stations and took a bunker mentality. I saw the sandbagged positions in front of the Rampart Division with my own eyes.
So if I come to these boards jaded it is not without cause. I know what its like to be abandoned.
Conversely, I was a resident of MA when the N. Hollywood shootout occurred. I called the N. Hollywood Division of the LAPD and spoke to the Watch Commander. I told him that when I saw that car go down the throat of that guy in a move that was reminiscent of the old LAPD it made me downright proud. I told him that I had been critical of the LAPD since they abandoned us but that this was one of the truly proud moments in LAPD history. I asked him to congratulate his guys and give them a slap on the back from me. He was appreciative of my comments and said he would pass them on.
Then the Rampart Division debacle happened and put them back on track. SOP as it were.
TheeBadOne
Member
The LAPD was advised by the powers that be not to "over react" as that could spark problems...
The LAPD did not put out a ban on ammo, the local lawmakers did, not the cops.
Again, the lawmakers put the ban on firearms, not LAPD. The Cops always get blamed for the laws, but they don't write them, they don't pass them, and they don't interpret them.
All the best
jimpeel
Member
TheeBadOne
Then I guess the newscasters got it wrong when they stated that the Los Angeles Police Department has issued a directive to all gun shops and sporting goods stores in the Los Angeles area to suspend all firearms and ammunition sales until further notice.
They did not say the Los Angeles City Council has issued a directive to all gun shops and sporting goods stores in the Los Angeles area to suspend all firearms and ammunition sales until further notice.
There was no enactment of directive xxx. There was no law that was triggered by this riot -- oops, I mean, err, uprising.
The directives came from the LAPD whereupon the local TV news crews descended on Orange County to show the long lines of people who were buying firearms and ammo there. The parking lot of Turner's Outdoorsman in Tustin looked like a collection point for newsvans.
I was there, I saw it, I heard it. I was one of the people in line at Turner's as we headed to OC and the folks house in Placentia.
As I stated prior, I know what its like to be abandoned.
Then I guess the newscasters got it wrong when they stated that the Los Angeles Police Department has issued a directive to all gun shops and sporting goods stores in the Los Angeles area to suspend all firearms and ammunition sales until further notice.
They did not say the Los Angeles City Council has issued a directive to all gun shops and sporting goods stores in the Los Angeles area to suspend all firearms and ammunition sales until further notice.
There was no enactment of directive xxx. There was no law that was triggered by this riot -- oops, I mean, err, uprising.
The directives came from the LAPD whereupon the local TV news crews descended on Orange County to show the long lines of people who were buying firearms and ammo there. The parking lot of Turner's Outdoorsman in Tustin looked like a collection point for newsvans.
I was there, I saw it, I heard it. I was one of the people in line at Turner's as we headed to OC and the folks house in Placentia.
As I stated prior, I know what its like to be abandoned.
Kaylee
Member
guys, you wanna argue LAPD and riots and such, please to be starting another thread. Let's stay on topic, eh?
As to the topic itself...
How..... odd.
-K
As to the topic itself...
How..... odd.
-K
jimpeel
Member
Kaylee
Sorry. The point was abandonment. Been there, done that. I feel this man was abandoned and left to die in the middle of the street begging for his life.
If he was the perp, or part of a conspiracy, no sympathy.
Sorry. The point was abandonment. Been there, done that. I feel this man was abandoned and left to die in the middle of the street begging for his life.
If he was the perp, or part of a conspiracy, no sympathy.
TheeBadOne
Member
From MSNBC.com
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