Effect of declining hunting on RKBA?

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I would like to hear opinions on how some people on here (especially the hunters) feel the decline in the number of hunters will effect the overall RKBA movement. I just finished looking up some numbers and articles and most states are reporting numbers of hunters (based on lisences issued, tags granted, etc.) has dropped by up to 31% while the number of residents has actually increased. Seems like small and general game are suffering the worst losses while big game is suffering the least. I am afraid if these numbers continue and the RKBA movement is not more successful in persuading non-hunters to see our point of view we might be in for hard times since I feel that hunting has been the strongest leg holding up this table.
 
Honestly? I don't see it making that much of a difference. I've found that the most politically active gun owners out there are the guys who are either into handguns, or the guys who are into "military-style" weapons (I hate that term, but I don't really know a better one). Not necessarily the hunters. Let me be clear here... I don't mean to say that handgun fans and military-fans aren't hunters. Most probably also hunt. But it doesn't work the other way around. Most hunters aren't into pistols or military weapons.

I think hunters have never really felt as if their interests were being threatened the way that handgun owners and the military-style fans do. You and I know that there isn't a difference in terms of how anti-gunners feel, but for the average hunter who just owns a couple of bolt-action rifles and a shotgun, he hasn't yet felt the full bite of government interference and regulation, so he's not (by and large) as politically active or involved as people from the other two groups will tend to be.

So the point being that while hunting seems to be declining a little bit, other shooting sports seem to be increasing in interest and attendance, and as a result we may end up with fewer shooters, but more shooters who are politically involved and interested.
 
The real problem isn't the decline of hunting. The real threat to RKBA is that, as a whole, the industry still acts like huting is the main reason to own a firearm. The NSSF recently redid their logo to include a hunter. The NSSF and NRA spend more on "hunter recruitment" and "hunter retention" than on other means of getting people into firearms.

The industry and trade groups need to shake the "hunter focus" they've had and look at the larger picture regarding gun ownership. They need to work to recruit more "shooters," not just "hunters" and spend more to support "shooting" activities, not just "hunting" activities.

I've got nothing against hunters or hunting. It's just not the "be all and end all" for the shooting sports and the industry needs to realize this.
 
[quote='Card]or the guys who are into "military-style" weapons (I hate that term, but I don't really know a better one).[/quote]
I struggle with that one too. Maybe "tactical" style is more appropriate.
Good points...I wonder how many people in the NRA are primarily hunters though.
 
Trebor,
You just hit on something I have felt for awhile. I feel too many eggs are in one basket. All the focus is placed on hunters by the pro-gunnies and all the focus is placed on rednecks with automatic weapons by anti-gunnies. As hunting decreases so does their platform if hunting is made so important. I even noticed at the local outdoorsman show it has gone from about 60-40 hunting over fishing to 80-20 fishing over hunting in just a few short years. Guys like me and others that noone would peg as a gun lover are virtually ignored. I wonder if Oleg has ever done a poster series with unlikely gun owners. Sort of a way to show that gun rights matter to more people than you would think. Something like little old ladies with pistols, yuppies with revolvers, liberals with shotguns, etc.
 
I'm not the first one, or the only one, to make this observation. Michael Bane lays out the case much better than I did. The firearms industry is really much more fragmented than people realize. The "tactical" are still the red-headed stepchild to the NRA and NSSF and in the public's mind compared to the "red blooded american hunters." Hopefully, as hunting declines, the industry will eventually realize they need to recruit other types of shooters and can't stick with the "tried and true" forever, because the support just isn't going to be there.
 
Well the hunters duck guns are safe. I see the expansion of gun ownership to other areas a good thing, especially the military style ones, the surplus rifles and handguns.
 
PlayboyPenguin,

You need to go to Oleg's photography site and look over his photographs. The diversity just might astound you.


Tactial weapons isn't a good term to hang onto military-style weapons. It's playing into anti-gunners' hands who already want to brand your scoped deer rifle as a 'sniper' rifle. I like 'pseudo-military' weapons much better. Once some uninformed fence sitter asks about the term, you get to explain how the anti-gunners have been lying and playing Chicken Little with the 'assault weapon' terminology for years.
 
I agree with Trebor's posts. The plaid wearing "what duh ya need that for, you can't hunt with it" Elmers have been getting a free ride from the true RKBA activists.

At the very best they have been a millstone around our necks and at the very worst an enemy from within.

How many times have you heard a proclaimed "hunter" oppose the right-to-carry or oppose ownership of modern military style rifles? I've heard it more than I care to remember.:mad: A lot of them have shown me that they are willing to sacrifice one in hopes that the other will be spared not realizing or naively thinking theirs will be left alone.

They need to wake up and understand that we're all in this together and that the ccw person, IPSC/IDPA, three gun, target shooter, hunter, casual plinker and collector are all going to lose if the antis get their way.

I'm not bashing hunters, I are one. I'm mostly a subsistence hunter which if the plaid wearing Elmers understood what that was, it'd make them cringe.
I'm imploring them to jump into the trenches with us regardless of gun tastes and stop compromising all of our rights away in hopes of saving theirs. The Brady/VPC trash doesn't really see a difference between and AR-15 and a Browning BAR.
 
OK, then let's talk about that. I'll come at this from a hunter's perspective, because that's what I do. I like handguns, but I'm not as interested in them as I am my rifles and shotguns, and I'm not interested in the pseudo-military stuff at all. I carried a weapon with a black plastic stock for 4 years in the Army infantry. That was enough for me, and I don't see the point in paying three times the price for something that's a lot less accurate and shoots a much smaller bullet than my hunting rifles, just because some guy in a uniform carried it once.


For starters, If what you want is to establish some common ground with the hunters and get them more involved, then the first thing you should do is stop referring to them as "Elmers", and stop with the "Us vs. Them" mentality. It also probably wouldn't hurt to stop playing "More pro-RKBA than thou" every time a discussion about firearms comes up.

Just to give you two examples, I had the audacity to say on this forum one time that I thought a ban on full-auto weapons was reasonable - or, to be more exact, that I thought it was reasonable to require a special type of license in order to own one. Judging from the reaction, you'd have thought that I'd proposed that we all cut off our right index fingers and mail them to the Brady Foundation. That's a position and an opinion that a lot of hunters take. If you want to change their mind about that, then a reasonable discussion might be a good place to start. The typical reaction from the pseudo-military crowd seems to consist of accusing the speaker of being a fascist, a communist, and an undercover ATF agent, and doesn't seem to me like the most productive way of winning converts to your side.

Secondly, there's this whole perception thing. I'm honestly not trying to slam you guys, but you need to realize that the hunters just don't understand the whole appeal behind the pseudo-military thing. For the most part, they don't think the pseudo-military stuff should be banned, but they genuinely don't get why anyone is interested in it, and whenever they ask, it never fails that the loudest voice in the room is some wild-eyed freakazoid with an aluminum hat on who wants an AK-47 so he can shoot down the black helicopters when they come to take his guns away at the onset of the great race war or something.

So what would I suggest? When you're talking to hunters, I'd stress the collector's appeal in the military weapons. Most hunters have a shelf or two full of NASCAR crap at home, so they can understand collections. Keeping Mr. Race-War and Mr. Military-Wanna-Be in the closet would also be a pretty good place to start.

Honestly though, the most success I've ever had when talking to hunters is pointing out how much more deadly our hunting rifles are than the pseudo-military weapons the media is always screaming about on TV. When you get right down to it, an M-16 is just a .223, and it's a hell of a lot less lethal at any range than my .30-06. So why are the anti-gunners making such a big deal about that .223? Because that's how they get their foot in the door, and once they ban those, then it'll be much easier for them to come after my much-deadlier .30-06. That line of argument really works with hunters, and in my experience helps them understand the situation a lot better than some of the screaming and ranting you see out there.
 
[quote='Card]Honestly though, the most success I've ever had when talking to hunters is pointing out how much more deadly our hunting rifles are than the pseudo-military weapons the media is always screaming about on TV. [/quote]

This is an excellent point, and it is one that I frequently use when I explain to antis (or people who simply don't know much about guns) why the "assault weapons" ban was pointless.

[quote='Card]Just to give you two examples, I had the audacity to say on this forum one time that I thought a ban on full-auto weapons was reasonable - or, to be more exact, that I thought it was reasonable to require a special type of license in order to own one. Judging from the reaction, you'd have thought that I'd proposed that we all cut off our right index fingers and mail them to the Brady Foundation.[/quote]

Heh, yeah there's quite a few people out there who don't understand the value of being polite when arguing a point.

Despite my politeness when debating this issue, I have had conversations with many hunters who told me that owning a military-style rifle or semi auto pistol is low-class; or that owning any gun for self-defense makes me a low life. They can be quite condescending about it. My point is, the rudeness goes both ways.
 
The plaid wearing "what duh ya need that for, you can't hunt with it" Elmers have been getting a free ride from the true RKBA activists.
i get more anti-hunting sentiment here at thr than anyplace else, including my university campus. free ride? bs.

At the very best they have been a millstone around our necks and at the very worst an enemy from within.
nice. so, my primary interest is in hunting, and because of that i am your cross to bear? give me a break. if it wasn't for hunting, i wouldn't: own nearly as many guns as i do (maybe even only 1 or 2), be politically active, find an easy way to introduce kids to guns, etc etc etc.

I think hunters have never really felt as if their interests were being threatened the way that handgun owners and the military-style fans do.
nah, not true - at least not for me. everywhere i look, i see hunting threatened much more than guns in general. even many banners are afraid of an outright ban...

if you don't want hunter-support, then commentary like what i see here on thr routinely is the way to go. hunters may not be the primary part of the rkba movement, but they are a significant part.

to me, the typical, common anti-hunter rhetoric here at thr does far more to hurt rkba than most of the anti's nonsense. i am tired of having to defend my hunting and gun-ownership to people who are supposedly on my side.

you want to weaken the rkba movement? drive a wedge between the hunters and the non-hunting gun owners, and there will become significant weakness.
 
There are a lot of posters on this site who can't seem to understand how to be inclusive. Look at all the hate and disgust vented toward the NRA all the time. Too many posters want everything now and can't understand why the NRA doesn't go to D.C. foaming at the mouth and scratching and clawing. (they would end up losing, that's why).

IMHO, there are too many pro-RKBA posters who act just like anti-gunners. They want everyone to do what THEY want NOW since it is obviously the Right and Safe thing to do, and to hell with what anybody else wants or thinks including other gun owners. They are not necessarily wrong, but their strategy and tactics are very poor and I am glad they are not leading the RKBA movement.

Personally, all of my rifles are military surplus or military style arms. At least half of them are big enough and accurate enough to double as hunting rifles though. I am as much a collector as a shooter. I haven't hunted since I was about 12. Personally, I don't see the attraction of a small bolt action rifle with a big scope. I would rather spend money on a nice accurate semi-auto with a 20 round mag. Each to his own according to his likes I guess. :)
 
I think we have to remember that much as (they say) marijuana is a "gateway drug," hunting is often a "gateway shooting activity."

Lots of people (particularly YOUNG people) have their first introduction to firearms through hunting or wanting to hunt. As that reason for firearms presence and familiarity fades in our culture (and it is already doing this), we're left with a significant number of young people who have no introduction to firearms.

I grew up in rural Michigan. I can't see any reason I'd have gotten into guns if hunting with Dad hadn't seemed like something fun I wanted to do.

Without that, there'd probably have been no military service, no gun club membership, no league shooting, no teaching firearms safety, etc etc.

Just my .02, but the decline of ANY activity that makes firearms a normal and acceptable part of life is something we should be concerned about.
 
Hunting and Military service

I see both of these activities as the major gateways into the shooting sports and RKBA in general. Both sides need to stop the inflammatory rhetoric against each other and with the anti’s. Just because someone’s opinion is different doesn’t mean they are right or wrong.

Personally, I was introduced to the shooting sports in and urban environment with the YMCA. How often does that happen! I won several “turkey shoots”, 1st prize was a very large frozen turkey, which was nice when money was tight. We used a BB gun on a indoor makeshift range. Then we moved out of the city and started hunting, shotgun only. I later joined the Army and shot a rifle and pistol for the first time and loved it.

I think anything that gets the next generation into shooting (sport, hunting, plinking, self defense) is worth pursuing. United we stand, divided we fall.
 
Effect of declining hunting on RKBA?
I would like to hear opinions on how some people on here (especially the hunters) feel the decline in the number of hunters will effect the overall RKBA movement. I just finished looking up some numbers and articles and most states are reporting numbers of hunters (based on lisences issued, tags granted, etc.) has dropped by up to 31% while the number of residents has actually increased. Seems like small and general game are suffering the worst losses while big game is suffering the least. I am afraid if these numbers continue and the RKBA movement is not more successful in persuading non-hunters to see our point of view we might be in for hard times since I feel that hunting has been the strongest leg holding up this table.

Little to no impact. Only 1 in 5 gun owners nationwide (~16 million of ~80 million) is currently an active hunter, and most hunters also own nonhunting guns.

The majority of gun owners, and the majority of RKBA activists, are nonhunters.
 
I hate to do the finger pointing, but in the area of the RKBA, the hunting only crowd does have some negative impact in general.

When gun owners said they were fine with the Assault Weapons Ban, what gun owners do you think were represented in that stance, those that owned and used military style arms and firearms for defensive purposes that were directly affected by the ban, or the group of hunters that don't own them? I realize there are many gun owners that both hunt and own the semi-auto defensive arms, but if we're talking the primarily one or the other aspect, the fact that there is a "what do you need that for, can't hunt with it" crowd cannot be overlooked.

I would say that more purely hunting gun owners support the NFA and ban on new automatic firearms than those in the defensive firearm use crowd.

When you see gun owners in the media supporting some form of gun control, it's generally of the purely hunting variety.

I know here in Pennsylvania, our local "sportsmen’s" groups (with NRA backing and support) have sold out to gun control and supported it on may occasions, in fact, they've been responsible for a good bit of what little gun control we have outside of Philadelphia. If it were not for that crowd here, we'd probably be closer to Vermont on carry laws. This is not a dig on hunters in general or even the NRA, that's just what happened here, and it happens elsewhere.

It gets frustrating on this side of the fence when a large and influential group of gun owners simply takes care of themselves and helps to circumvent the second amendment all the while clinging to their 30.06's and furthering the falsehood that the second amendment has anything to do with whether or not you can "hunt with it". To me, that's no more supporting the second amendment than the church wanting prayer back in state funded schools is supporting the first.
 
It's no secret that this is a nest of snakes...as this thread clearly illustrates!

The heart of this issue is THE MONEY (good heavens, isn't it always?). Hunting is declining and will continue to decline, not because of antigun sentiments, but because of fundamental social "megatrends" that are pretty much beyond anyone's control — suburbaniztion/urbanization, increasing demands on declining leisure time, a proliferation of activities in the leisure time category, liability laws and the litigious nature of present society, etc.

The shooting sports, OTOH, are growing like crazy. The categories we might lump together as "collecting," whether it's black rifles or Glocks, is growing like crazy. Training is growing like crazy.

HOWEVER, 99+% of the industry's not-insubstantial monies are going toward hunter recruitment and retention. The numbers would STAGGER you. In several presentations — including to one of the largest hunting gatherings ever a couple of years ago — I pointed out that if just 10% of the money we're pouring into an ultimately futile effort to boost the hunting market was "deiverted" to the shooting sports, we would see an unprecedented renaissance in American shooting.

My concept, which I designed along with Paul Erhardt (now the Marketing Director for SIGARMS) for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, was to use what we called the two-tier, or step, approach to satisfy both sides. We KNOW how to get people to the range, so that's where we'd focus our efforts, aiming for a 10-fold increase in sport shooting over a 5-year period. We would then aim the hunter recruitment and retention programs at the NEW SPORT SHOOTERS, where we calculated the hunter programs would have a much, much higher success rate.

Essentially, Paul and I were interested in barriers to participation. There are two HUGE barriers to participation in hunting — purchasing a gun and killing an animal. However, there is only ONE barrier to sport shooting (or collecting or training), purchasing a gun. From our standpoint, baby steps made more sense that asking someone to make a big leap.

Considering that Paul and I had created and run one of the most successful programs in industry history...the NSSF Media Education Program...you'd think there would have been some interest. Instead, we got out of Dodge just ahead of the ole necktie party!

Here's the dirty little secret — the excise tax monies we all pay on firearms, ammunition and components is a big number, and state wildlife agencies have become addicted to the $$$. The tax as written included a provision for building ranges, yet by my research, NOT ONE PENNY of the excise tax money has gone into ranges.

Who pays the tax? According to the industry, the vast majority of the excise taxes comes from "hunters." However, the more we looked into that claim, the more we saw it no longer passes the sanity check. The situation has tipped...sport shooters, collectors, people involved in training are now paying the majorty of the excise tax, and we are without representation and have quite literally ZERO input on how our tax money is used.

HMMMMM...I've heard something like this before! Didn't it go something like, "Taxation without representation is tyranny"? And didn't it end vey badly for the taxing authority?

We can head this off before it reaches its inevitable end — a nasty schism between the shooting and hunting sides of the industry. But that will require our representatives to open their eyes.

Michael B
 
I am surprised that no one has mentioned

That a decline in easily accessible land to hunt on will equal fewer hunters. Fewer hunters will surely result in fewer gun owners. This will work against the RKBA movement. I too find the “what do you need that for” component of the hunting community annoying but we need to be careful on how we try to persuade them.
 
That was a really interesting post, MBane. Thanks for adding that.

As far as my first post is concerned, I wasn't trying to offend anyone. (when I try, you'll know it :) ) I just feel that in order to be able to talk to the hunting-only crowd, you have to know how they think, and you have to capitalize on the concerns that we have in common, instead of the few that divide the community.
 
Hmm..... Lots of distasteful comments and statements. Some real "Ambassadors" of reason.:rolleyes: I feel some of our worst enemies are among us.:scrutiny:
 
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