Energy transfer vs tissue damage

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As a former boxer, I can verify for you that getting your bell rung(pugilism terminology) is absolutely NOTHING like hitting your funny bone. A knockout worthy blow(knockout or near knockout) to the chin does not hurt, is not uncomfortable, and causes ZERO sensation.

Is is exactly the same mechanism, trauma induced nerve depolarization.

The nerves depolarize (fire) in response to being struck.

In you brain EVERYTHING pretty much stops working.

Luckily the lower level functions (like breathing) are in the medulla and recover quickly enough.

The brain while it is the seat of sensation, actually cannot feel pain.

Brain surgery can be done (and in some cases is done) with conscious patients with nothing more than local anesthesia for the skin and skull that have been opened.

If you want to understand what you are doing to your body, a little physiology would not hurt.
 
I don't think we are understanding each other. I responded to a comment that described the tingling sensations from hitting your funny bone, and then insinuated that a blow to the head would be similar experience but more extreme.

That is just plain false.

If you are trying to tell me I am wrong when I say that is false, then you are wrong.
 
Remo223

What they are saying is it's actually the same physiology at work, however it feels different because your "funny bone" are sensory/ motor nerves in you arm, which does a different task than your CNS.

SO, YOU will experience trauma to these different nerves in a different way even though the same physiology is at work. When you get your "bell rung" the trauma is caused to your brain (part of your CNS which really doesn't have sensory nerves like the rest of our body does) the neurons in the brain stop sending signals as they should, which is why our perception of distance or if our feet are on the ground gets all messed up. The same disruption of neuron signals in say the "funny bone" results in that odd tingling pain we all have felt.

It's the same physiology at work caused by similar trauma, it just feels different to us AND has a different effect due to the location and job of the nerves affected.
 
I don't see how that is important info, Diggers. This thread is about the effects of body blows(energy transfer) and tissue damage and what results in being incapacitated. You are arguing academics which have no bearing on real world situations. Nobody cares if there is a similar phenomena occurring at the synaptic level.
 
back on topic, "energy transfer" to what? Tissue damage to what??? Some organs under intense stress (like being hit from rifle bullets) can liquify, or so I'm told. Sorry, no references and I've never seen it, so that's just another rumor unless someone can verify.

I think in general, the answer to your question is neither. If you shoot someone in the pinky they are going to keep coming, so keep your shots confined to something more vital and see better results. It's all about shot placement.
 
I'm offering only a guess here: I think energy transfer and tissue damage are related concepts.

Probably most here are familiar with Firearms Tactical, which is one of the go-to sites for anybody interested in terminal ballistics.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Of course everybody is likely familiar with our own Brassfetcher, JE223, who has done a ton of testing over the years. If you're interested in terminal ballistics and you've never visited, then I could well recommend it.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/

JE223, you've gone above and beyond. Thanks for your contribution.

Another one I'd like to brag on is our own Zak Smith. He gives a pretty comprehensive listing of testing of various handgun bullets in ballistic gelatin, both bare and denim-covered. These may be the FBI's test results, but they're laid out in a concise and easy to read fashion.

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

Again, great work, Zak.

One thing that might be missing from some sites is cavitation. I don't think there's any question that cavitation, if and when it occurs, is important when you're looking to evaluate tissue damage. And I don't think there's any doubt that tissue damage is important to both stopping either an attacker during self-defense or an animal during hunting. IMO you have to look at the overall tissue damage that might be done, whether there is cavitation or not. But how to add cavitation area, or volume, to penetration area or volume is something I can't as yet wrap my head around.

But my question is: What is the mechanism of cavitation, if not energy transfer of some kind? In most of the ballistic testing I've seen, expanding bullets generally create wound cavities which are larger, by varying degrees, than the bullet's expanded diameter. This is also generally the case with fragmenting bullets as well, such as the military 5.56 mm's.

Sorry to be so long winded. I think I'll take a break now. :D
 
OK, you're in trouble. Somebody is kicking down your door and screaming that they are going to kill you. Two handguns are lying in front of you; a 10mm that you shoot badly, and a 9mm that you shoot very well.

Which do you pick up?
 
Remo223, I'm just clarifying a point that YOU were talking about. I'm not arguing academics or anything else, just explaining something you didn't seem to understand.

However, it DOES matter because WHERE the energy is transferred is paramount to the question of if the attacker is incapacitated or not.

IF, and it’s a big if, an attacker doesn't stop due to the pain and psychological effects of being shot, then the only way that attacker is stopped is by disrupting the CNS. i.e. the ability to receive information and send commands to the body.

Which is the difference between someone being shot in the arm or being shot in the head.

So, back to shot placement.

With that in mind, it would be the 9mm KodiakBeer :)
 
Oh boy, how many times has this horse been whipped. I don't remember all the details of the extensive military tests. In pistols like just about anything, bigger and faster is better. More energy is better, bigger hole is better. The energy of bullets that exit is not wasted as they make another hole for blood to exit. Damage is related to what part of the body you hit. Fluid filled tissue or bone makes a big difference in energy transfer.
Just about everything is a factor, shot placement top billing. If bigger and faster wasn't better they wouldn't make artillary. If shot placement, number of holes, and energy weren't important, they wouldn't field the 5.62 Nato. Energy transfer doesn't seem to be much of a factor in pistols. Fatter and faster, but some folks can take a lot of damage and still function. It's hard to predict who will win a close range shootout judgeing just by weapon. Who would you bet on between a 9 mm with 20 rounds ans a 6 shot .44 magnum at 5 yards, or 50 yards? A scared novice or cold killer? Being at the wrong place at the wrong time, I like being out of range as a good defense.
 
Two handguns are lying in front of you; a 10mm that you shoot badly, and a 9mm that you shoot very well.

Which do you pick up?

Both! I don't want to leave one for the guy to shoot me with! :D
 
OK, you're in trouble. Somebody is kicking down your door and screaming that they are going to kill you. Two handguns are lying in front of you; a 10mm that you shoot badly, and a 9mm that you shoot very well.

Which do you pick up?

Both, and then I take him out while flying through the air. (Hot Fuzz reference)
 
If you have studied boxing as I have since I was a kid. It is the only sport i watch other that a little MMA, and Football. Having grown up with several professional boxers, One was Marciano's only fighter who he held a contract on, 17 and 0, till he got hit with a 12 gauge in the groin. He was acting when last we spoke, As Burt Young and many others the allure seems to run parallel. But a shot to the liver, famous from guys like Roy Jones Jr, will end a fight as fast as a hook to the temple or jaw, sometimes with even more dire results, So Now we enter different pathway. This is pure pain. Unbearable pain that causes everything to shut down. Usually a delay of 1 to 30 seconds is not uncommon.Body punches can be more deadlly than any other type or blow. the brain just shuts down "I guess", not being a doctor the obvious answer has to be the unbearable pain confined to that area of the liver and pancreas, causes everything to stop. MMA is just brutal so I won't even go there. these guys are just ruining their lives as far as I am concerened. Having seen many of them work out, "I can't mention names" when I owned the gym, and having been friendlly with Don's Kings brother, Carl, I had many work out in my club, including Michael Moore, "he dosen't mind if I mention his name", But getting hit by some of there guys is like having a terrible car accident.I think shootig is more humane to be honest. And no matter how good they are, they seldom quit when they should. That energy transfer is devestating.
 
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This is pure pain. Unbearable pain that causes everything to shut down.
I believe (I may be wrong) that MacPherson would consider pain a "psychological effect" and undependable as a fight stopper; and/or that the amount of pain is related to the permanent crush cavity of the bullet. So that permanent wound channel is the only thing that matters.

But I think you've got a point.
 
I responded to a comment that described the tingling sensations from hitting your funny bone, and then insinuated that a blow to the head would be similar experience but more extreme.

That is just plain false.

I was using it as an example of how trauma can cause nerves to depolarize and stop working.

As others have pointed out, it is far more devastating in the CNS than in peripheral sensory nerves, and HOW we perceive the trauma depolarization is going to be different.

The first thing to assessing impact is understanding WHAT is happening in the body from the trauma.

The trauma to depolarize nerves and make them STOP WORKING is not always that large.
A head blow (boxing or otherwise) can shut down everything in the CNS briefly over wide areas of the brain.
You do not feel anything, or remember anything, since a large area has been affected.

When you strike your head and 'see stars' the area affected is the visual cortex.
Striking it is very likely to be perceived as a visual disturbance.

Strike the area of the brain for hearing and you are likely to perceive sound from the depolarization.


One of the more recent discoveries was that head trauma that results in the cessation of respiration is NOT a death sentence as was previously thought.
If you can get the patient on a respirator and try and limit brain swelling (chemically or surgically or both) the patient may recover.

The brain is acutely sensitive to even minor pressure.

In Multiple Sclerosis the tiny localized swelling in the brain produces most of the symptoms observed, not the actual damage to any single nerve.
The damage from the temporary swelling can become more permanent the longer it is allowed to continue however.

We are talking about the immune system causing swelling around a small section of a nerve.
It can sometimes barely be seen on an MRI because there is a very slight change in the brain density at the site.

The CNS is remarkably easy to disrupt, but it is not always repeatable since the damage is rarely repeatable and every persons brain is slightly different.
The 'areas' that have been mapped as performing different tasks and functions are not hard and fast, just general 'areas' that in a number of patients have appeared to create similar symptoms.

Larger functions can be mapped (left side of brain controls right side of body) but mapping a particular muscle innervation to a spot on the brain is not nearly as sharp a boundary.

It took any years for effective treatment for bacterial meningitis to be developed.
The mortality rate in infants was 80%.
Antibiotics would kill off the bacteria, but the infant died 24-48 hours later from brain swelling (uncontrolled it can force the medulla of the brain through the base of the skull and suppress respiration).

Finally methods were developed to suppress the immune system to prevent the swelling, and the mortality rate dove to less than ~20%.

For self defense the brain is still a small target, inside a nice bone skull for protection.
You need to not just get past the bone, but do enough damage over a wide area.
Damage a less important area or small area and not much may happen.
 
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