Enfield jungle carbine

[Sistema1927]

Gewehr98,

I wondered how to counter the "all of them are butcher jobs" attitude, but you beat me to it with your post. My experience with my "real" Jungle Carbine (No5Mk1 ROF(F) 12/45) closely mirrors yours with the exception that I never had to do any tightening to eliminate any "wandering zero". That varnish was a mess, but the wood underneath looks pretty good once you get all that stuff off.

I don't load hot and heavy for mine, since 125 grainers at a modest velocity do the job on the coyotes that I use it on.

Back to the "butcher jobs", I think that most of them are the result of a desire to duplicate the utility of the No5Mk1, or in other words, "imitation is the most sincere form of flattery". Unfortunately, most of these attempts fall short, and have thus given a black eye to the term "jungle carbine".

 

[ArmedBear]

When I said that all of them were butcher jobs, I meant that, AFAIK, every No5 was a cut down No4. I don't believe that any No5 Carbines left the factory as carbines, originally. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know.

As far as the quality of the gun, that would probably depend on how well whoever did the conversion did the work, as well as how good the No4 was that formed the basis for the carbine.

 

[Diomed]

When I said that all of them were butcher jobs, I meant that, AFAIK, every No5 was a cut down No4. I don't believe that any No5 Carbines left the factory as carbines, originally. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know.

Yep, you're wrong. Prototypes were made from No. 4s, production rifles were built as No. 5s. Any carbines using a No. 4 body are, 9,999 times out of 10,000, not going to be factory original.

The wandering zero business getting bandied about is a myth. Folks have tried to replicate it under controlled conditions and failed. If someone can take a representative sample of service grade No. 5s and reproduce the problem, then that would be a major event and a couple of books would need to be revised.

 

[BigO01]

Stauble , why now take a trip down to a Walmart and see what the have in new bolt action rifles ?

I picked up a closeout Savage 110 in 30-06 a couple of years ago for $250 brand spanking new .

I see Howa's without any scope on them for under $300 and Remington 710's for about $340 all the time at my local stores .

 

[Vairochana]

I tried to post this earlier- non-butchered sporter not a "JC" tho

 

[Gewehr98]

Armed Bear, you're wrong by a good country mile, and then some.

True No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines left the military arsenals in exactly the shape and form you see in my picture. There are no No4Mk1 parts in them, save for those that may be common to both designs.

True No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines have several distinguishing features:

1. Hollowed-out bolt handle
2. Scalloped lightening cuts on the Knox Form, aka barrel shank under the handguard
3. Lightening cuts in the rear receiver area under the rear sight
4. Vernier rear sight graduated to the shorter range of the No5Mk1 carbine
5. "Pinched" lightening cuts on the triggerguard
6. Metal forend cap, often deleted during production runs
7. Buttstock with side sling relief, and rubber buttplate
8. Combination flash hider and bayonet lug
9. "No5Mk1" stamped or engraved into the left side of the receiver

There are more than a few No4Mk1 rifles out there with some No5Mk1 parts, I've seen them with the hollowed-out bolt handles and pinched triggerguards. This was due to production overruns on the No5Mk1 line, and since they fit just fine on the No4Mk1, by all means...

Regardless, the No5Mk1 carbine was a totally separate production item from the No4Mk1 full-length rifle. The trick these days is to find an original example, vs. that copy somebody made from a butchered No4Mk1, since the former have been in scarce supply for many years. As was mentioned earlier, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", so there are many faux No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines out there created from No4Mk1 rifles. That's where you got the misleading idea that all No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines were created from butchered No4Mk1 rifles.

Might I suggest a good read? Ian Skennerton can give you production figures for arsenal-new No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines, and basically anything Lee-Enfield in nature:

http://www.skennerton.com/

 

[Stauble]

Stauble , why now take a trip down to a Walmart and see what the have in new bolt action rifles ?

I picked up a closeout Savage 110 in 30-06 a couple of years ago for $250 brand spanking new .

Unfortunatly my local wal-marts no longer sell rifles. when i bought my ruger 10/22 there, the manager told me this was the last gun they were ever going to sell

 

[ball3006]

No 5 carbines were built as carbines....

they are not cut down No4 rifles. If you want a sporter Enfield, come to the Dallas/Fort Worth area. There are gazillions of them in the pawn shops........You should just buy a used commercial rifle instead of hacking a military arm........chris3

 

[wayne in boca]

I bought my No.5 36 years ago for $50.00,went deer hunting with it.Got a bayonet for $ 5.00 ,and a sling for $ 8.00.Still have it,and the zero hasn't wandered off yet.Tried to pawn it once,and the pawnbroker told me it wasn't worth anything.Never refinished it,just BLO on the stock,and no import marks.My best gun investment,I always show it to my wife and tell her what a lot of of money it's worth and why I need another M1A.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Wyane,

Do you know how much that bayonete is worth? An origional Mk5 bayonet??

Hope you still have it.

 

[Diomed]

There are more than a few No4Mk1 rifles out there with some No5Mk1 parts, I've seen them with the hollowed-out bolt handles and pinched triggerguards.

Not so, many No. 4s have lightened bolt handles, though the diameters are usually different from those of the No. 5s. The bolts are technically different but are considered (by the Brit military) interchangable.

There are other unique No. 5 parts, lightened sear, different barrel band, lightened wood, etc.

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

Huh, the .303 an anemic round? Gewehr was quite correct; no way is it anemic. Its used quite regularly in Canada to hunt moose and even grizzly. Two of the most bad-ass lions to ever live were killed by the .303. If its an anemic round, then so is the 30-06.

 

[sturgis]

I've had my No.5 for 36 years, and never have had a wandering zero, or any other problems. Well except a sore shoulder every now and then. Maybe it was built by a bright Brit during a lul in the air raids.

 

[JoshM]

Among my extended family of keen deer hunters, I'd have to say that JCs have taken the most deer by a wide margin...

Simply because the ammunition is cheap, plentiful, and the JC lends itself to being handily stowed in a Landcruiser/ute. Whereas the more expensive Remchesters, Steyrs, and Sakos only come out for the planned hunting weekends.

For a .303, the recoil and "bark" is considerable. Therefore I don't think it's a good starter rifle for introducing kids to deer hunting (as one of my Uncle's tried with a cousin of mine).. But really that's the only negative aspect of JCs that I can think of !?

 

[BCHunter]

No 5 MkI production run

There appears to have been 251,300 “Jungle Carbines” – No. 5 MkI Lee Enfield SMLE rifles manufactured at two manufacturers.

Frazakerley - 170,000

BSA – Shirley - 81,300



Below is an extract from Wikipedia on the “Jungle Carbine” which hopefully is helpful concerning Jungle Carbines made as No5 MkI and copies made from other SMLEs.

Post-War Non-Military Conversions

Whilst they did not invent the name, the designation "Jungle Carbine" was popularised by the Santa Fe Arms Corporation in the mid to late 1950s, who imported and converted huge numbers of SMLE Mk III* and Lee-Enfield No. 4 rifles to civilian versions of the No. 5 Mk I, for the hunting and recreational shooting markets in the US. Prospective buyers must be very sure they can tell the difference between a real No. 5 and a conversion, although the easiest way to do this is to look for the markings on the left hand side of the receiver- a genuine No 5 will have "Rifle No 5 Mk I" electrostencilled there, while a post-war conversion will generally have either no markings, or will have markings elsewhere from manufacturers who did not make the No 5 Mk I (for example, Savage or Longbranch).
Companies such as the Gibbs Rifle Company in the U.S. have sold completely re-built Enfields of all descriptions, but most notably their copies of "jungle carbines" (made from original No. 1 and No. 4 rifles) and the "Bulldog" rifles (also fashioned from original No. 1 and No. 4 rifles). As long as a vendor is not trying to pass one of these rifles off as a genuine No. 5, there shouldn't be any confusion over their origin and type, but not every gun owner or gun dealer is a surplus military firearms expert and mistakes (both accidental and intentional). The deliberate, permanent modification of military surplus firearms (loosely defined in the US as any ex-military firearm that is eligible for possession on a 03 FLL C&R licence) is not only actively discouraged, but a source of constant despair to the military surplus firearms collecting community, especially when it causes as much confusion as it has with the No 5 Mk I and civillian conversions thereof.

 

[w2monster7]

Enfield Mk5 #1 Sporter

I Recently Got My Hands On One.i Have Been Looking At These Since I Was 16..finally The Chance Came My Way ..IT IS STAMPED MK5 #1.this Sporter Is One I Have Never Seen.this one was a conversion by someone here in the US. it Had A Cardboard Peice Of Paperin the butt. From 1965 That The Gunsmith Name And Date On It.but, I Would Love To Find The Original Stocks For This That Were In Good Shape.this Mk5 Is A Really Nice Looking Rifle And The Obvious Is That They Bring Twice The Money.it has a face prop carved in the wood..weird..everyone that see's it says its worth nothing and then wants to buy it...so that tells me i should hold on to it .i Shot One When I Was 16 And They Do Have A Nasty Little Kick..anyone Know Where To Get The Original Stock Furniture?:

 

[mp510]

An authentic, good condition to very good, Lee Enfield Number 5 can easily run $400 to $500. There have been complaints of wandering zeros with those rifles due to the lightning cuts that were made. I'm not saying that they are bad rifles or anything, and I personally think they have very nice aesthetics.
For around $299 Dick's sells scoped Marlin 336 rifles in .30-30 every so often on sale, particularly around hunting season. Even when they aren't on sale, you can get a pretty decent deal on one. Check out gunbroker or gunsamerica and you should be able to get a fair deal on a used Winchester 94 or Marlin .336.

 

[Sistema1927]

I wouldn't get a real JC because they're known for accuracy problems (actually a "wandering zero"...

As has been stated earlier, this was probably dreamt up due to the desire of the troops to whom it was issued for a semi-auto. Either that, or due to the result that the recoil with the standard ammo was more brutal than the No.4.

As to them being "cut down", there are plenty of bubba jobs done that way, but the real deal was built specifically as a carbine, with the lightening cuts. My Fazerkely is a great carbine, and with some light lead loads it is a fine coyote gun.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

"Real" Jungle Carbines are also cut-down butcher jobs.

But they were cut down and butchered by a British arsenal.

Only the first No.5 prototypes were made by chopping No.4s. Real No.5s were made as such. The receivers and barrel knox forms have lightening cuts on them.

Edit: I noticed after I posted that several people beat me to it. That'll show me to read the whole thread before responding.

 

[Baba Louie]

...anyone Know Where To Get The Original Stock Furniture?:

Try Numrich

http://www.e-gunparts.com/products.asp?chrMasterModel=1990zNO 5 JUNGLE CARBINE&MC=

 

[303carbine]

Jungle carbine

I have had about 10 of the No5Mk1 rifles, not one had the 'wandering zero"
As I have always said, the only wandering zero is the guy who made up that myth about the No5

 

[yesit'sloaded]

From personal range experience.

Moisin M44-loud,flames from muzzle,kicks enough to let you know you just shot a real gun, hits what you aim it at, 5 rounds that may or may not jam the bolt to the point of hammering it open.

Jungle Carbine- more of a bark than a boom, light weight makes recoil not fun at all, ammo not cheap, scope mounts available that work fine,10 round detachable mag, cycles like a dream, all in all a nasty little gun.

 

[Aussie bloke!]

Good Old no 5's

G'day everyone,....

The 'Jungle Carbine' is a great rifle.
I have one and use it to shoot goats out to 1000mts.

As for the 'Wandering Zero',.....that was a problem with amunition that was produced at that time,no mechanical fault has ever been found with the rifle.

I use handloaded amunition and it shoots as straight as any hunting rifle.

Thay are strong robust and one of the best bush guns around.

If you can,get yourself one,you won't regret it.


Aussie.

 

[Aussie bloke!]

Beat me to the source.

G'day everyone,.....

Might I suggest a good read? Ian Skennerton can give you production figures for arsenal-new No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines, and basically anything Lee-Enfield in nature:

http://www.skennerton.com/

You took the words right out of my mouth,...as the saying go's!!



Aussie.

 

[Full Clip]

My #5 with Numrich furniture:



My only accuracy problems crop up after popping off 40-50 rounds, the barrel really heats up and my shoulder goes soft!