Engraved Colt 1851 Navy.

[Kenny G]

I am researching this gun for a friend who's wife inherited her father's collection.

It is a matching numbers Colt 1851 Navy that is completely engraved. I am pretty sure it is not factory engraved it but does appear to have been shipped by Colt soft to be engraved because the cylinder does not have the Navy scene, there was no caliber stamped on the trigger guard and the address on the barrel is engraved as opposed to being stamped.

The engraving is light and rather plane but pretty much covers the whole gun. I sent some pictures to Paul Szymaszek at Colt and he is pretty sure it is not factory engraved.

My questions are should I have my friend get a factory letter, has anyone seen engraving like this and. does anyone have an estimate of the value.

Thanks for your help.

 

[MedWheeler]

I don't have any info for you, but it is indeed a handsome piece. I didn't know Colt made many of them with brass frames.

Maybe the mods here could drop this down into the "Black Powder" section; I'm sure the guys there would like to see this, and might have some insight..

 

[Jim K]

The frame is not brass; the grip straps and trigger guard are, and that would be correct for a 51 Navy.

The gun appears to be a Middle Fourth Model and the serial number is right for that model. The serial number font and location look good, but the engraving appears strange, I am thinking foreign. I believe I can safely say it is not Colt factory engraving, and looks like nothing I have seen done in the U.S., Latin America, Japan, or Europe. It has something of the Arabic, Middle East or North Africa, about it, but I have no real basis for such a "feeling".

The trouble is that such a gun could be a weird original, but it could also be a worked over repro. In any event, IMHO, the engraving does nothing to enhance the gun and decreases its value. I may be wrong, but I can't see anyone paying more than a nominal amount for that gun unless it can somehow be proven to have some historical value (owned by Billy the Kid, for example).

Jim

 

[TomADC]

See if these folks can help: http://www.colt.com/Catalog/ArchiveServices.aspx

 

[Kenny G]

Thanks for the input. Paul Szymaszek is the guy at Colt that you call for a letter. He didn't indicate that he had any doubts that it was a colt.

In answer to my questions about the engraving he said "It may have left “soft” and went to Hartley & Graham or another NY location for outside engraving, but I am not familiar with this style of work. Very interesting – a very delicate engraving style I have not seen before."

I am in hopes that someone might have seen this style of engraving and have some info on the engraver.

I am trying to decide if having a factory letter would be worth the price (even though it was not engraved by Colt) if it showed that it went to a well known engraver, before I recommend that my friend spend the money.

 

[PRM]

The frame stamp looks like what you would find on a Colt. The engraving is definitely after market and the barrel address is not of any Colt origin that I have ever seen. I'd say the jury is still out on authenticity, I have seen some pretty authentic looking re-stamps. The pic below has a Cimarron barrel that has been "engraved" with the Colt address. To a novice it looks real close to factory stamping. You could have an original that has been heavily worked over. Shooter grade at best and probably would have more sentimental value than monetary value.

 

[bannockburn]

Definitely a style of engraving that I have never seen before; somewhat sparse and on the minimalist side of things.

 

[bainter1212]

How much does a letter cost? In this instance, if I had the money and it was my gun, I think I would get the letter....just to try to figure out the story on this gun.
May have been a presentation piece at one point.

 

[CraigC]

The "engraving" was not done by an industry firearm's engraver. There is no overall flowing pattern. There is no detail. It's all simplistic repetitions of the same small patterns over and over again, as if done with a stencil. I would say it detracts from the gun's value and I probably wouldn't go to the expense of a factory letter.

 

[ivankerley]

i think its cool, not typical engraving but a nice piece nonetheless, kinda like primitive folkart be cool if it could tell the story
Gene

 

[Kenny G]

Thanks for the input, I am still trying to convince him to get the letter.

 

[kBob]

SO how does an engraver learn his art? I wonder if someone may have done this just to master the engravers tools. I notice some of the engravings are mirror image of others......sort of like someone just learning how to engrave a shape on varying surfaces.

I know that engravers begin their training on steel flats, but at some point they need to go on to the sort of curved surfaces they will encounter on guns they are doing for pay. You can not mess up on a customers gun, period.

I suspect that at some time in the past someone learning the art bought an at the time cheap and not collectable revolver and had at it.

You will see things like it today in the used BP market done on modern reproductions on the auction sites occasionally.

This need to go to BP anyway.

-kBob

 

[Mk VII]

The same thought occurred to me. Apprentice work on a gun that no longer had much value.

 

[CraigC]

I seriously doubt it. Like I said, the patterns have no basis in known firearms' engraving. Folks going to school or working as an apprentice to learn engraving would produce lackluster work but in a standard style. One learning to engrave Colt's (or any revolver) would certainly be studying the old masters like Young, Helfricht and Nimschke. They would be practicing American scroll. Not repeating patterns placed at random, wherever they fit. It doesn't even look like cut engraving.

American scroll:

 

[ivankerley]

all valid points but I'm speaking from a guy that likes to put my mark on things whether it be a holster, a painting or a gun regardless of how folks 100 years from now will see it, that's secondary I do it cause it puts a smile on my face. not saying that's what this is but I suppose it could be.
gene

 

[Barry the Bear]

Craigc,

That's a beaut of a weapon, is it yours? And if it is, is in it .44-40 or .44spl?

 

[CraigC]

Not mine. Looks like a Frontier Sixshooter, which would make it a .44-40. It's also factory engraved from 1892 and estimated at $45,000-$55,000.

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2158-358/

 

[Jim K]

Interesting that the barrel legend on that frontier model is engraved (and rather poorly at that). Factory engravers usually started with barrels that already had the full rollmarks and worked around them.

A little note on factory engraving. Factory engravers never engraved in areas that would be subject to wear in normal use, nor did they engrave over the normal markings. If you see, say, an S&W with engraving that is in the path of the cylinder stop drag line, it is not a factory job. Same with engraving over the Colt "pony" or cutting into barrel patent dates.

Jim

 

[MartinS]

There is no patina. Just "worn look antiquing".

 

[CraigC]

If you see, say, an S&W with engraving that is in the path of the cylinder stop drag line, it is not a factory job.

I've seen that and it looks like crap. You can get away with it with a traditional single action, because with proper timing and proper handling, it should never drag the bolt around the cylinder. It's inevitable on a DA. We've got to work on something creative for the New Model Ruger I'm having done in .500JRH. Something that may make the dragline less obvious, not more.