Enlarging the fleet

[Howa 9700]

Didn't want to hijack the "do everything" thread, so started a new one specific to my question.

Find myself in unfamiliar territory. For first time in a long time, thinking of adding another rifle to the fleet. For concept, it would be something like a Tikka T3X laminate stainless in 6mm Creedmoor. Use will be for hunting, and target shooting along the line of PRC targets, but without the competition. A trainer for younger shooters. So an easy shooting gun with high accuracy potential. By accurate, lets go with 1/2" to 3/4" MOA. A rifle with potential to print 5 holes that you can cover with nickle at 100 yards is the goal. I've never owned anything but a factory gun along lines of old school Remington 700.

I tend to think in terms of analogies. So one would be with autos. At reasonable top end, lets say a Mercedes or BMW = GA Precision. At bottom end.......and entry level Chevy, Ford or Dodge = Mossberg or cheap entry level Savage. I'm thinking high end Toyota. Ergo the Tikka reference. Then if need be trick it out.

First thought was a bespoke gun from a custom maker. Outfits like GA Precision offer 3/8" MOA guarantee, but they run over $5000. But eventually, reality sets in and you realize guns good enough for what I want to do can be had for a fraction of that. That last 1/4" of accuracy comes at a cost.....that goes straight up. Going from a quarter to a nickle to a dime gets pricey fast.

My guess is unless someone has a safe queen that is no longer needed, my best option is to find an action, then start in on it. But if not careful, back to the bespoke gun and $5000 plus.

So when you guys are looking to do something similar, what process do you follow?

What is reasonable cost for what I want? What is process? I see guys who build guns that shoot bug holes, but just as many probably won't shoot 2" groups. Nobody brags about those.

As for finding the donor or base, I'm certain hundreds of them are sitting idle within 10 miles of me right now. How does one go about finding them?

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I kinda just went through this. I wanted a tough and weatherproof rifle, that can target shoot as well as hunt, that's not too heavy, that has certain features like a bolt lock or 3 POS safety, possible CRF, reliable mags, etc

The conclusion that I came to was these three rifles, all at varying costs.

1. Sako S20
2. Sauer Pantera
3. CZ600 alpha

I went with the CZ as price eventually decided.

1. It's got a medium weight barrel that stays cool for extended firing but also is still very light

2. It's got a hybrid CRF that also allows it to be single loaded

3. It has a nitride like finish that so far is weather proof even in a winter storm

4. Has an accuracy guarantee and has met the Sub MOA accuracy standard

5. Locking detachable mag, so best of blind mag and detachable

6. Short bolt throw and angle

7. Built in rail

8. Locking bolt safety

9. Threaded barrel



So that's what I did. It's a cheap rifle, around $600+, and does have a "recall" which basically takes away the ability for a "home barrel swap" which is inconsequential to me

Edit: this is obviously an off-the-shelf option. I have no opinions or experience with custom rifles. If going custom, I would lean towards Savage if you are still figuring it out

 

[BreechFace]

When you combine hunting, target shooting and PRC targets...it starts to get muddy.

-How heavy do you want to have the kids carry around hunting?
Out west here a heavy rifle is not fun (and don't say just drop weight in the waistline, that's different).

-How light do you want a target rifle to be?
It's harder to shoot a light rifle accurately, not saying one cannot do it but fundamentals of trigger pull have to be on spot.

-How many shots in quick succession is to be expected?
A light contour barrel for hunting is going to heat up faster when target/PRC shooting; a heavy barrel that absorbs strings of fire's heat, isn't pleasant humping up mountainsides.

-How much magnification are you going to need for target/PRC type activities?
High magnification scopes are necessary for hunting and often add unnecessary weight and bulk to the equation.

-How much velocity do you intend to get out of the desired cartridge?
Target/PRC a longer barrel will help squeeze out some more velocity, but at the expense of getting hung up on more things out hunting.

-What type of stock?
A target/PRC stock with adjustable cheekpiece, flat for-end might not be the best choice for hunting, but newer hunters are fielding chassis guns more often these days. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Frostbite]

Local classifieds would be a good place to start.

It might seem counterintuitive, but I rather suggest a brand new already excellent rifle unless you are able to do the work yourself, it might be less expensive in the end and closer to what you really want. Sako rifles look great and are said to be shooters, I read good things about Browning X-Bolt, available in so many configurations one should be close enough to what you desire. The add-ons add on... The final cost. For what it's worth, a Tikka should be able to meet all your requirements out of the box. Bergara should also be looked at, based on what this forum transpires.

I like the caliber you chose, on paper ; would love to shoot one someday.

 

[Mauser fan]

In my own quest to find or build the perfect do it all rifle. It all comes down to limitations. The budget is the biggest player of all. I can only speak for myself when I say this. Find a donor rifle with a good action. A Savage 110 would be where I"d start looking because they are plentiful and can be upgraded very easily with the sky being the limit for DYI potential. Besides they are ridiculously easy to work on and barrels can be changed in minutes. That's my shekels worth of opinion.

 

[Howa 9700]

Lightweight is not one of our hunting rifle requirements. Nobody going to carry it more than a few hundred yards to a deer stand. It can weigh 10 pounds and be OK. A sporter bull, light varmint, etc is OK. Tactical type setup.

 

[BreechFace]

Lightweight is not one of our hunting rifle requirements. Nobody going to carry it more than a few hundred yards to a deer stand. It can weigh 10 pounds and be OK. A sporter bull, light varmint, etc is OK. Tactical type setup.

Answering that question, than I would begin by answer what type of action you prefer? Win70, Rem700, Savage?

I like the Win70 action but for what you describe it seems like you would be better served more towards a Rem700 style or Savage and between those two I would go with a Rem700 or one of it's clones, as the aftermarket is huge for those.

In addition, finding a nice chassis that has good adjust-ability of LOP and cheek height would be advantageous when switching between shooters as well as detachable magazine options. There are some really nice chassis' out there, I just have a disconnect myself in fielding them for hunting service, but that is strictly a personal issue.

 

[Howa 9700]

If buying a donor and not a complete rifle, a 700 action is what I'd be leaning towards. All the rest in the stable are 700's.

 

[Howa 9700]

As for sourcing, I'm about 35 min drive to Graf's retail store in Mexico. Maybe a few other gun shops same distance. But with Graf's costs me $50 in gas each time I go. So spending money on nothing that helps me each trip. So hanging around gun shops / pawn shops (those terrible here) not on my A list.

Rumor has it gonna be a gun show in a few weeks. Ads say 80 tables. Never been to a gun show, so not sure about that.

Also occurs to me there are hundreds if not thousands of potential candidates in gun safes of guys reading this on THR. A WTB post might do two of us a favor. How does that work as far as legal transfer and payment? Local? Assume if distant, treat those like a seller on Gone Broker? Ship to local FFL?

 

[Varminterror]

GA Precision offers their Pinnacle Production Rifle at $2500.

Seekins Havak would be another rifle to consider.

I wouldn’t buy a Rem 700 if it were free. Too much work to get where it needs to be, and still only ends up “fixed” instead of being made right in the first place. Old Remington is dead, new Remington are crooks. The day is over.

 

[redneck2]

This may be an obvious point, but your ammo is just as important as the rifle. If you don’t hand load, that would be a big part of the equation

I have three rifles that meet your requirements if I use my hand loads. A Browning X-Bolt in 7 mag, an AR Varminter with an air gauged match grade barrel, and a CZ 527 in .204 Ruger. All have shot multiple +/- 1/2” groups. All have high quality glass and light, smooth triggers. I had an AR with a Shilen barrel that was just as accurate.

Point is, IMO with modern rifles it’s quite possible with a little effort. If you have a rifle with a 1” guarantee with factory ammo you should be able to do noticeably better by hand loading

 

[dcloco]

My Savage shoots 1/2 moa to 550 yards with 108 Nosler RDF's.

 

[Howa 9700]

GA Precision offers their Pinnacle Production Rifle at $2500.

Seekins Havak would be another rifle to consider.

I wouldn’t buy a Rem 700 if it were free. Too much work to get where it needs to be, and still only ends up “fixed” instead of being made right in the first place. Old Remington is dead, new Remington are crooks. The day is over.

The Pinnacle would do. And from what a local gunsmith told me, likely $1000 less than if he/we built something similar from components......with unknown outcome.

How would anybody know GA even offered it? I've been all over their website and could not find the link. Had to search for it from a web browser.

 

[Varminterror]

The Pinnacle would do. And from what a local gunsmith told me, likely $1000 less than if he/we built something similar from components......with unknown outcome.

How would anybody know GA even offered it? I've been all over their website and could not find the link. Had to search for it from a web browser.

They sell out of them in every production run, and there’s been a standing wait list - so I’m assuming they’re simply not taking deposits at this time. Usually the Pinnacle is an option on their rifles page. Give or take, it comes up to a $900 action in a $1200 stock with a $400 barrel and $200 trigger, $250 bottom metal, for $2500…

Not so different than the Badrock Southfork or Masterpiece Arms PMR, for $2000-2500. Great deals on phenomenal rifles.

 

[Russ57]

If I were in your shoes, I'd put a new barrel on my old Remington 700. That is assuming your 700 is "old enough". Ask around for gunsmith recommendations and let one see if what you have is a viable platform to build from. A good barrel, a chassis stock, and a nice trigger should transform most guns.

Needless to say you can have the barrel in a different cartridge (within limits).

 

[d2wing]

I can vouch for Tikka. It is a top choice at Snipers Hide and I really like mine. Most production rifles can be a mixed bag. Sako is a top tier rifle that also makes Tikka. I had heard good things about the CZ. Some makers rifles need upgrades. Poor triggers, stocks, magazines. stiff actions etc. That's why I like Tikka. No worries. But there's lots of nice rifles to choose from.

 

[d2wing]

Remington's are still the basis of lots of custom rifles as well as Remington clone actions. I have had several, including one I bought 3 years ago, all were sub-moa. You can still buy clone actions. I would rather buy a new Tikka, Good to go but you can build custom rifles from them a is common on another site.

 

[redneck2]

If I were in your shoes, I'd put a new barrel on my old Remington 700. That is assuming your 700 is "old enough". Ask around for gunsmith recommendations and let one see if what you have is a viable platform to build from. A good barrel, a chassis stock, and a nice trigger should transform most guns.

Needless to say you can have the barrel in a different cartridge (within limits).

If you take a couple steps back and analyze the above, you’ll see why I shy away from this approach.

You take a standard action (which needs work to straighten it out from the very start). Then you discard the trigger, stock, barrel. Kinda like the old joke about lifting off the radiator cap and driving a new car under it. And you still most likely end up with something less than simply starting with a whole new base from the start. And you’ll have just as much money in an inferior result.

Now, if you’re willing to accept a Tikka/Sako/CZ/Browning that has the advantage of economy of scale and not have to discard OEM parts, you would be money ahead. Only you know if it’s more important to save some money and be willing to use an off the rack rifle versus a slightly more expensive custom or semi custom one.

 

[MachIVshooter]

When you combine hunting, target shooting and PRC targets...it starts to get muddy.

-How heavy do you want to have the kids carry around hunting?
Out west here a heavy rifle is not fun (and don't say just drop weight in the waistline, that's different).

-How light do you want a target rifle to be?
It's harder to shoot a light rifle accurately, not saying one cannot do it but fundamentals of trigger pull have to be on spot.

-How many shots in quick succession is to be expected?
A light contour barrel for hunting is going to heat up faster when target/PRC shooting; a heavy barrel that absorbs strings of fire's heat, isn't pleasant humping up mountainsides.

-How much magnification are you going to need for target/PRC type activities?
High magnification scopes are necessary for hunting and often add unnecessary weight and bulk to the equation.

-How much velocity do you intend to get out of the desired cartridge?
Target/PRC a longer barrel will help squeeze out some more velocity, but at the expense of getting hung up on more things out hunting.

-What type of stock?
A target/PRC stock with adjustable cheekpiece, flat for-end might not be the best choice for hunting, but newer hunters are fielding chassis guns more often these days. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

Just some thoughts.

Pretty much sums up what I planned to contribute.

In general, the features of a good hunting rifle and a good target/PRS rifle are at odds with each other. Maybe not so much if you ride an ATV to a blind and just sit & wait, but if you're hiking the rockies, you do not want a 12 or 14 pound gun with a bunch of weird protrusions like oversized bolt handles and stock adjustment knobs hanging on your shoulder, poking you and snagging on brush.

8-9 lbs with scope, sling and full magazine is about as heavy as I want in a field gun.

 

[hdbiker]

I have a TIKKA T3 LITE in .243 Win. It's great for both deer & varmints, prolly the most accurate rifle I own.

 

[Varminterror]

if you're hiking the rockies, you do not want a 12 or 14 pound gun with a bunch of weird protrusions like oversized bolt handles and stock adjustment knobs hanging on your shoulder, poking you and snagging on brush.

Nobody wants any of these things on their PRS rifles either (with the exception of bolt handles, which is overstated as a disadvantage - and most guys aren’t actually running oversized knobs on their match rifles).

Lots of guys pull the weights out of their chassis or stock, and swap a huge contour steel barrel for a carbon fiber barrel to reduce the rifle from 22lbs to 10, and take their competition rifles hunting - especially with the whole-hog adoption of headspace controlled actions AND the advent of NRL-Hunter matches which dictate lighter guns in more powerful cartridges (aka, hunting rifles).

But overall, that which is a hindrance while hunting is a hindrance in PRS/NRL too - the differences are weight and recoil.

 

[Turkeytider]

Would really like to see what my Savage 110 in .223 would do with tuned hand loads. Sub-MOA easily at 100 yards with factory loads that it likes.

 

[hq]

My guess is unless someone has a safe queen that is no longer needed, my best option is to find an action, then start in on it. But if not careful, back to the bespoke gun and $5000 plus.

So when you guys are looking to do something similar, what process do you follow?

I'm along similar lines right now, with the exception that I want something that's light enough to carry - on a biathlon harness on skis, climbing mountains and so on - yet match grade accurate and capable of taking even 500yd+ shots if need be. The most realistic out of the box solution I've come across so far is T3x Superlite in .300WM. As pointed out by others, they're fantastic shooters out of the box and "need" nothing more than a good scope and you're done. I may consider giving it once over by hand-lapping the barrel and let my vanity get the best of me having it hydrodipped to high grade satin walnut look, but that's about it.

The moose season is over, we're out of tags now, and unless I find time to fly over to a Monteria in Spain, it'll be next October before I need that gun. So there's plenty of time to have second thoughts about this, but yes, I've researched this quite a bit and haven't been able to come up with a more obvious solution.