Enough Elk Gun

[silicosys4]

This is the first time I've EVER heard of using something like the .375H&H on elk. I've mostly heard .270, .30-06, .308, .300mag, 7mm mag, .338mag, and .45-70. Never the H&H, though. LOL

My buddies and I have had that discussion. We all seem to agree that a .375 of some sort is the best overall caliber, but since none of us reloaded at the time we solidified our caliber selection, and we had never seen a box of .375 ammo of any kind in anything but specialized gun shops,
we all ended up with calibers you have mentioned.

 

[H&Hhunter]

This is the first time I've EVER heard of using something like the .375H&H on elk. I've mostly heard .270, .30-06, .308, .300mag, 7mm mag, .338mag, and .45-70. Never the H&H, though. LOL

Armed therapist,

Well....Since the .338WM is just like the .375H&H I guess you have just contradicted yourself just a little bit.
The .338 WM and the .375H&H both produce about 4,000 Ftlbs they both do it with bullets in the 225 gr to 300 gr range and they both just about duplicate a .30-06 in trajectory. So when you break it down they really aren't that much different.

You must not have read much Elmer Kieth....

The .375H&H is more popular on elk than one would expect. It is NOT as common as the rounds you've mentioned. Just like a .300H&H isn't as popular as a .300WM.

 

[35 Whelen]

An ex elk guide named Skeeter Skelton killed numerous elk with a 243. However being a guide he spent a lot of time in the field and could pass up anything but a shot he really liked. It was said that he never wounded an elk. Is a 243 enough gun? It was for Skeeter Skelton.

I own and have shot a 30 06 for close to fifty years and think that it is enough for me. Now the trick is to see an elk in Pa. I said that as a joke but there ARE ELK in western Pa.

I think maybe you're thinking of Les Bowman.

35W

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Well....Since the .338WM is just like the .375H&H I guess you have just contradicted yourself just a little bit. The .338 WM and the .375H&H both produce about 4,000 Ftlbs they both do it with bullets in the 225 gr to 300 gr range and they both just about duplicate a .30-06 in trajectory. So when you break it down they really aren't that much different.

They're both quite powerful, yes, but the .375 will consistently give more than the .338 mag. I was actually thinking ballistically of .338 Federal when I said that, though. LOL

 

[Arizonagunrunner]

My 1980's Remington ADL 270 does what it is required to do. "Work". And it has never let me down or feel lacking for something more. Sure I have my Savage 110 in 30-06, and I love that gun just as much.
But I can tell you that the ole 270 will drop an elk just as well as all the other calibers being mentioned. I have shot 6 elk in my life. All in the Flagstaff AZ area. 4 bulls and 2 cows. The 270 was used for one bull and one cow. Both were shot at about the 200 yard range. Both were taken with one shot broadside. And the ammo being used was Remington green/yellow box 130 PSP Core Lokt
The bull went 40 yards and dropped. The cow ambled about 5 yards and dropped. I would not think twice about hunting anything in the lower 48 with a 270. Shot placement is the most important part of pulling the trigger.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

But I can tell you that the ole 270 will drop an elk just as well as all the other calibers being mentioned.

Broadside at 200 like you shot them, I agree 100% with you.

At 443 quartering away at a 3/4 angle, not so much.

As I said before, the best tool for the job isn't one that will perform when conditions are just right. The best tool for the job is one that will perform well under less than favorable conditions.

We have elk here in Arkansas and they issue permits. If I'm lucky enough to draw one, I'll have no qualms about taking my .30-06 or .280 on the hunt. I agree that they are good tools for the job. But if you can't see the benefits of a larger round for elk hunting in various terrains, you just aren't looking for them.

 

[mdauben]

At 443 quartering away at a 3/4 angle, not so much.

Personally, I know my limitations and would not consider taking a shot at almost 450 yards, even full broadside. From my observations at the local range before and during hunting season, its my opinion most hunters should not be planning for shots at that range, either.

IMO, why bother with a gun that can take out an elk quartering at 450, if the shot is beyond the shooter's capabilities? If one is an exceptional shot, that's different but as I said I don't see a lot of hunters who are.

 

[35 Whelen]

This could be summed up so easily. YES, the .270 is will do. In fact any cartridge that will put an expanding type hunting bullet through both lungs of an elk will do. Animals simply cannot live very long with hemorrhaging lungs.

I killed the first of my bulls with an unglamorous 7x57mm loaded with an equally unglamorous 154 gr. Hornady cup and core bullet. The next three have been killed with a 35 Whelen as will all future bulls.

If a fella likes big cartridges, awesome, go for it. Just make sure you can hit with them.

One thing to remember: the distance of your trip, how long you saved for it, or how much it cost you, or how high you climbed the mountain doesn't give you the right to sling bullets at animals 1/4 mile or further away.





514 yards away and two days before I had spent a few hundred dollars on diesel dragging several thousand pounds of trailer, horses, mules, feed, hay, saddles, panniers, tack, guns and ammunition to get me and my $575 dollar bull tag to this point. I did NOT feel I had the "right" to take a cross-canyon shot through shifting winds at these beautiful beasts.

Use a gun with which you can hit, and be ethical in your hunting practices.

35W

 

[35 Whelen]

Personally, I know my limitations and would not consider taking a shot at almost 450 yards, even full broadside. From my observations at the local range before and during hunting season, its my opinion most hunters should not be planning for shots at that range, either.

IMO, why bother with a gun that can take out an elk quartering at 450, if the shot is beyond the shooter's capabilities? If one is an exceptional shot, that's different but as I said I don't see a lot of hunters who are.

Very, very wise. Thank you.

 

[Arizonagunrunner]

What amazes me is all these fine hunters here talking about 400 + yard shots on game like Elk. Who does that? And how many regular hunters practice these amazing feets through out the year before hunting season. I am a pretty good shot. I shoot regular. But to blast away at 400 +. ON BIG GAME the size of elk? I think there is a lot of fish story telling going on here. Now I am sure there are several hunters that do make these shots, but it is the exception, not the rule.
I would never try and take an elk or anything else at 400+ yards. I would say the average hunter wounds more then kill at that distance then harvest their game. And my 270 would not be the ticket for a 400 yard shot on elk. I have hunted everything AZ has to offer. Elk, Black Bear, MT Lion, Mule-Whitetail-Couse deer, coyote,fox, bobcat, varmints, javelina, pronghorn and more. I have never had to shoot past 320 yards. 90 % of all my shots are well inside 200yards. I have hunted for 35 years. Lots of game has been dropped. So I think the "long range" shot most folks talk about is wishful thinking.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Personally, I know my limitations and would not consider taking a shot at almost 450 yards, even full broadside. From my observations at the local range before and during hunting season, its my opinion most hunters should not be planning for shots at that range, either.

IMO, why bother with a gun that can take out an elk quartering at 450, if the shot is beyond the shooter's capabilities? If one is an exceptional shot, that's different but as I said I don't see a lot of hunters who are.

I don't disagree with any of that.
I would not attempt a shot of that magnitude either, but that has to do with my abilities.

So I think the "long range" shot most folks talk about is wishful thinking.

I agree that the average shooter shouldn't attempt those long shots. But the people who are capable and skilled enough to do it shouldn't be disparaged when they do. My inability has nothing to do with you or anyone else's ability.

And I agree that the .270 and '06 class rifles will get the job done on elk just fine if you're not one of those guys who can pull off those shots, and I am not one either.

 

[40 rod]

These " Enough Gun" threads are lots of fun. Let us extrapolate the notion that a .556 62gr @ 3000fps is woefully underpowered for a 200lb deer. A nice bull Roosevelt Elk will weigh 1000LB , or -deer x5 . It would then stand to reason that a 310 gr slug at 3000fps is way to small for elk and that a 50BMG is about right.

I feel that a .556 (with the right bullet) is ok for deer and that a .243 is ok for elk , but of course more is better. Most will agree that a .300 winchester is a good choice for elk.

 

[H&Hhunter]

They're both quite powerful, yes, but the .375 will consistently give more than the .338 mag.

Armed Therapist,

A bit more energy in close. .037 more diameter and better bullet selection for the .338 for shooting longer range. All in all on paper the .338 is a better balanced elk round than the .375. In reality they are so close in performance a hunter can't tell the difference in the field.

The reason I use a .375H&H over a .338WM? Because I bought my first .375H&H when I was bush flying up in Alaska on the advice of some old time hunting guides and bush pilots and like them I chopped my barrel to 20" so it the rifle would fit behind and across the rear seat on a Cessna 180 where it lived anytime I wasn't using it. I noticed real quick that the rifle performed on game like none other that I had previously used. My previous rifle was a M-77 in .270 Win and a .257 Bee. I could hit game with the H&H at any distance I was comfortable shooting game with the .270 and the H&H would punch through just about any animal from just about any angle making a nice straight line hole and doing less meat damage than my .270.

A bit latter in life I started hunting Africa. And since the .375H&H is legal for DG in any country in Africa it makes a great do it all rifle. Why change to something else when you know the rifle you are shooting like it's an extension of your body? It and the .338 are two calibers that give you up close thumping and "brush busting" ability and are excellent longer range rounds as well. And that is a rare combination.

I don't like the .300 mags or the 7mags or the big fast . 338's like the RUM or the Weatherby or any of the super high velocity rounds because at close range they just tear the hell out game leaving huge portions of meat blood shot and inedible.

I do the majority of my hunting in dark timber and get lots of shots inside of 100 yards on a moving critter. And of course I don't pass over the open areas where a longer shot might be the norm. And for my needs I've got the perfect tool for the job.

I also wind up hunting with a my .30-06 quit a bit and it's never failed me yet on elk. But I do not take snap shots with it on moving elk. As has been mentioned multiple times now I adjust my hunting style to the rifle I have in my hand at the time. The last elk I killed with a my 06 was at 233 yards standing broadside. The bullet was a 180 Barnes TSX that penetrated from just behind the on shoulder and exited the middle of the off shoulder. That elk took two or three steps then did a back flip and died.

The very next elk I killed was in a thick aspen grove and the herd had been spooked by a non listening hyper active member of our hunting party. In any case the elk started "lining" out of the grove at a fast trot. I picked an open lane in the aspens about 150 yards down the hill and waited for one of the bigger cows in the rear. They were trotting away at about a 3/4 angle. From a seated position I waited until my cross hair filled with elk knowing that my 270 gr TSX out of my .375 would give full penetration no matter where I hit the big cow. As she trotted through the open lane and my cross hairs passed her shoulder I pressed the trigger.

She went about 30 yards and fell the big X bullet hit her a little far back behind the diaphragm. Penetrated the liver lungs went behind the heart broke three ribs and the off shoulder and stopped under the hide of the off shoulder.

You simply don't play the game that way with a .30-06 or a .270 on elk.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Invariably I'll hear from the some folks when I mention .375H&H and elk. "Oh man that thing is going to blow an elk all to pieces." Nope actually just the opposite it does very minimal meat damage. Far less than your .270 with a 130 gr cup and core bullet.
here is a picture of the carcass of a cow I killed several years ago. the rifle was my 20" .375H&H the bullet was a 270 gr TSX at a MV of about 2700 FPS.
Entrance wound. Like they say you can eat right up to the hole.

Exit wound. As you can see she was standing steeply uphill from me. This shot was at about 80 yards and once again in thick dark timber. And of course with this shot presentation a .243 would have worked just as well. Turn that elk about 40 deg and not so much on the 6MM or a .270 with a 130 gr Cup and core bullet. Now take that same .270 with a 150 gr controlled expansion bullet and at that range you are still in business.

 

[X-Rap]

I shoot one of the hotter .33's but have had similar results. I also hunt with a 45-70 and am well pleased with the results within its limitations.
I am also no stranger to the potential of the 06 and its spawn and have taken a number of elk with a 280. One such was at about 80 yds and another at just over 400, the 400 yd shot through the chest was one of the most spectacular I have seen, at impact he launched and flipped to his back and didn't move again. It was as broadside as you can get and done with an 18" 760 carbine.
I am a huge believer in knowing your gun, proving it at the range both off the bench and in field positions out to whatever range you can responsibly handle.
The gun or distance one shoots has no bearing on his ethics or abilities. Slobs are people and they come in all varieties.
I have been in the game long enough to have come to some strong conclusions, like most that has come from a variety of sources, some from others many from myself in personal experience as well as observation. I don't run with a lot of slobs so most of my input has been positive and two conclusions are irrefutable IMO, bring enough gun and know your limitations.
It is up to us as individuals to determine those answers but if failure is frequent then you need to adjust.

 

[35 Whelen]

Invariably I'll hear from the some folks when I mention .375H&H and elk. "Oh man that thing is going to blow an elk all to pieces." Nope actually just the opposite it does very minimal meat damage. Far less than your .270 with a 130 gr cup and core bullet.
here is a picture of the carcass of a cow I killed several years ago. the rifle was my 20" .375H&H the bullet was a 270 gr TSX at a MV of about 2700 FPS.
Entrance wound. Like they say you can eat right up to the hole.

Exit wound. As you can see she was standing steeply uphill from me. This shot was at about 80 yards and once again in thick dark timber. And of course with this shot presentation a .243 would have worked just as well. Turn that elk about 40 deg and not so much on the 6MM or a .270 with a 130 gr Cup and core bullet. Now take that same .270 with a 150 gr controlled expansion bullet and at that range you are still in business.

It's amazing how much damage a cup and core bullet can do. The following pictures are of a bull Dad shot a few years ago with his Whelen. A Speer .358" 250 gr. SP loafing along @ 2510 fps MV. He shot the bull at 44 yards. I've never seen so much blood on the ground from a running animal.

Entrance wound:


Where the bullet stopped:

All that was left of the bullet:


35W

 

[Certaindeaf]

Today, WWEKD?. Elmer Keith. Back in the day he liked him some powerful rifles.
What do you think he'd like these days?

 

[H&Hhunter]

I don't know WWEK do but it's said that before he died in 1954 Bell mentioned that he'd have used a .308 if it was around in the day.

 

[X-Rap]

I think one of Elmers .33's was a colaboration with another fellow that ended up being closely copied by the 338-378 Weatherby. (of which I am fond of)
The caliber battle sure didn't start here, reading the Keith/OConnor letters is quite enjoyable and FWIW none here can hold a candle to those two when they got after it.

 

[35 Whelen]

I think one of Elmers .33's was a colaboration with another fellow that ended up being closely copied by the 338-378 Weatherby. (of which I am fond of)
The caliber battle sure didn't start here, reading the Keith/OConnor letters is quite enjoyable and FWIW none here can hold a candle to those two when they got after it.

You're on the right track. Elmer's collaboration was with Charles O'Neil and Don Hopkins resulting in the 333 OKH. The cartridge was essentially a 338-06...only with .333" bullets.

Elmer was a strange dude in my opinion. He thought the 270 was too light for deer, yet thought nothing of lob .44 caliber pistol bullets at them.

35W

 

[MinnesotaFats]

my first and only moose was killed by a .270 at what we figured to be 310 yards. im a very confident man in my rem. 700 .270 handloads. that being said, i believe if a guy has enough target practice/skill/confidence with an applicable caliber, he'll do just fine...but thats a givin'.

 

[X-Rap]

The 338-378 KT is the one I was thinking of, he also had a hand in the 340 Weatherby.

 

[MinnesotaFats]

btw 35 Whelen, you got the best sig line on here.

 

[toiville2feathers]

In the late fifties and early sixties Jack O'Connor made the Grand Slam on North American Big Game. All twentyfive species were shot with a model 70 win in a .270 cartridge. That includes the Grizzly bear, Brown Bear and Polar bear. Each month for over 2 years he wrote an article in Outdoor Life about the hunt that he had. I read every article,and each article had a full page artist rendition of the animal subject. I hung every picture of the animals on my bedroom wall. They were there for many years fueling my dreams and future hunting plans. I so wanted to have a job like jacks.
The bullet that Jack wrote about in his stories that I can remember were winchester silvertips
His wifes rifle of choice was a 7 X 57 and she shot lots of game with that rifle.
Those were wonderful stories that jack wrote about. He made the model 70 and 270 famous, no doubt about it. Jack was writing and hunting at atime when game was plentiful. Matter of fact he considered the white tail deer the most challenging trophy to kill because they were so few. The mule deer where thick as jack rabbits. now today the opposite is true.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I don't know WWEK do but it's said that before he died in 1954 Bell mentioned that he'd have used a .308 if it was around in the day.

I think he died in 1984