Entry level long range question

[Old krow]

I've read through some of the threads here concerning long range precision rifle competitions and many people advocate starting with a .223, especially for F-class. From what I have seen, most of the factory .223 rifles with a barrel longer that 22" lean toward a 1:12-1:14 twist. From what I gather, the guys shooting out to 600 yards prefer a heavier bullet that would require a faster twist. A few, like the Savage F-T/R in .223 has a 30" barrel and a 1:7 twist but to be perfectly honest, it seems like a rifle like that is defeating the purpose of going the .223 route.

So my question is; is there an alternative to the Savage F-T/R in .223? And the next question would be, in the case of the .223, is the rifle twist rate more important than the length of the barrel? It just doesn't seem like there are a lot of alternatives to start this way.

 

[quartermaster]

Long range shooting is best with a bullet with a high ballistic coefficent, which translates into a longer bullet. A longer bullet requires a faster twist rate in order to stabilize it. The higher the BC the better ballistics for distance and wind fighting capabilities. The longer barrel will give you a bit more velocity.

There is lot's of info out there in line which will thoroughly explain BC and sectional density better than I can.

IMHO, I think I would look at another caliber for 600 yds. I'm sure it will work, but a 6 or 6.5 mm may be less of a fight for you.

It's all fun, whatever you decide. QM

 

[taliv]

223 would be a horrible choice for long range anything. Long range f class is 800-900-1000 yards and even the best 223 will be very hard to shoot at that range and result mostly in frustration.

A 308win would be ok if you're looking to buy a factory rifle but you'd be better off with a 6 or 6.5 or 7 mm short action cartridge of some type. Ask around your local range and you will prob find some f class guns for sale by people who were new shooters last year and looking to upgrade.

You will need a 7 twist in 223 or even a 6.5 twist to shoot the 80-90 grain bullets which are the only thing with a prayer of hitting the 10 ring at 1000

The slower twists are for the little varmint bullets

 

[Hoser]

F Class T/R is either a 223 or a 308.

F Open is any caliber.

From there you can make a choice.

If it is short/reduced range F Class, a 223 will work, but you arent making it easy on yourself.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'll take my .223 in preference to my .308 for midrange F-T/R, out to 600 and certainly for anything less.
But it is not your Grandpa's .223, 6.5 twist and 90 gr VLDs from JLK or Berger.

The worst thing about shooting a .223 is getting the pit crew to look for the little bitty holes.

Be aware of that distinction between F-T/R (.223 and .308 ONLY) and F-Open (anything up to .35 - but you don't get a brake or suppressor, so forget about that .338 Lap.)
Those way kewl 6, 6.5, 7mm, and Big .30 guns are in F-Open and the cost of admission is much greater, in guns and gear.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Yup, most of the relevant points were already touched upon.

The .223 is going to be a real challenge at mid-range (600 yards). The upside is you're going to learn the hard way just what wind will do to a bullet during flight. And it costs less.

In the long range F-class matches you'll be setting yourself up for frustration.


If you don't want to compete in the Open class, the .308 at the mid and long range F-class matches is going to be much easier to shoot and stay competitive.

But to answer your question, twist rate is extremely important. You must match your bullets to the twist rate of your rifle, and you're limited to what the twist will handle. Twist is much more important than length, in my opinion. If your twist can't handle the better, top-end B.C. bullets (in that caliber), it doesn't matter how fast you push a lighter, less efficient bullet. It'll lose that speed at a faster rate, and be more affected by the wind conditions.

So you can't make it up with velocity. Buy you can gain an edge by using a bullet with a very high B.C. (for the same caliber).


If you decide to compete in Open, you should prepare yourself and expect to spend considerably more to get into it. If you want to be competitive, anyway. Many of the Open rifles I see at local F-class matches are either semi or full-custom builds. The folks who are really good, and even some who aren't, choose a non-traditional round to chamber the gun in. And they're pushing them quickly which shortens barrel life, sometimes considerably.


If you stay in F T/R you won't get wrapped up in that chase, and you'll get much more life out of your barrel.

 

[Old krow]

F Class T/R is either a 223 or a 308.

F Open is any caliber.

I realize now that I didn't specify in the OP. I was talking about F-T/R, and only out to 600 yards with a .223.

One of the threads that I was referring to was this one.

I'd prefer to stay away from F-class open atm as it seems like the initial buy-in would be considerably higher. The problem that I see with the .223 is that it looks like there aren't very many guns that are made with a long barrel and fast twist. I have and load for both the .308 and .223 atm. It would appear cheaper to re-barrel the .308 than it would to buy something like the Savage F-T/R in .223.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'm confused. Why rebarrel a .308, just SHOOT it. By the time you have worn out the barrel, you will have a better idea about what you want to do with it.

 

[BullfrogKen]

^^^ Precisely.

Just go shoot it. After you've learned what you're doing, you'll be ready for a second barrel AND be able to take advantage of it. No reason to blow out a great custom barrel while you're in the process of learning.


You can't buy skill.

 

[taliv]

So 600 yrds is called midrange and yes 223 is a good caliber for it.

 

[ReaperIII]

i am a big fan of the r700 sps varmint 1-12 ($600) in .223 its the rifle i started with. it definatly isnt gonna like the wind and 600 will be challenging. but the reason to start with .223 is to build good habits like a smooth trigger pull and not flinching at the scary boom. my passing sniper school had alot to do with the habits i gained from shooting that rifle.

if you already feel comfortable with your fundamentals then get intimate with your .308

 

[JShirley]

You could get a fast-twist .223 from E.R. Shaw for $1000 or less, but you'd have to wait up 14 months for it.

 

[browningguy]

F-open really isn't that much more expensive by the way, unless you go all out with a Panda or Stolle action. You can get a Savage 12 F class for about the same price as a F-TR. Or you can build a Savage, buy a used or new short action rifle, add a Riflebasix or SSS competition trigger ($100), prefit barrel of your choice (Lothar @$400 or maybe slightly more for Shilen etc), various good BR type stocks ($300-400). So for around $1200 you could build or buy a competitive Savage rifle in 6BR or 6.5-284.

 

[LAL357]

that is reason i like savages i started out with a savage mod 12 tigershark(600.00 used) in 308 shot it last season at our club matches then picked up a mod 12 lrpv in 223(750 used) did well with it was shooting in the mid 180's to mid 190's at the matches. then found some used barrels for sale a mcgowen 1-8t 26" varnint taper 223 for 105 shipped and a shilen select match 308 30" bull barrel for 175 shipped swapped them out myself put a sightron 10x50x60 on the 308(1200.00) and a vortex crossfire 8x32x50 (200.00) on the 223 as you see i dont have that much in these rifles the scope is more then the gun on one.
i just finished a 6.5 creedmoor for f open class
used 110 la 150.00
cbi barrel 350.00 includes new barrel lug and nut
used boyds stock pillered and bedded 75.00
rifle basix sav-2 trigger set at 6oz. 150.00
and old bushnell 4200 8x32x40 scope that i had laying around
so for about 1000.00 with scope i have a match rifle
i love pawn shops

 

[highbrow]

223 in an appropriate rifle (26-30" barrel, 1 in 7 or 8 twist, 80gr bullets) works very well out to 800 yds. Beyond that it gets iffy.