Errant Bullet Travels 1.5 Miles, Kills Amish Girl

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This is a sad situation from which no good will come for anyone. A young women has lost her life in an improbable incident and if justice is served, the person responsible should be held accountable....
 
During the Battle of Adobe Walls in the 1870s, Billy Dixon squeezed off a shot from his Buffalo rifle at an Indian riding a horse along the edge of a ridge and hit the Indian.
It was later measured and found to be 9/10ths of a mile.
A mile and a half is definantly doable but I suspect it was a highly elevated barrel that deleivered it -- and a horrible chance that it hit the Amish girl.
You just can't be shooting guns off into the air like that when you not sure of the backstop.
 
Tommygunn said:
During the Battle of Adobe Walls in the 1870s, Billy Dixon squeezed off a shot from his Buffalo rifle at an Indian riding a horse along the edge of a ridge and hit the Indian.
It was later measured and found to be 9/10ths of a mile.
A mile and a half is definantly doable but I suspect it was a highly elevated barrel that deleivered it -- and a horrible chance that it hit the Amish girl.
You just can't be shooting guns off into the air like that when you not sure of the backstop.
Click to expand...
If you will follow the link in my post #24 and read Mike Venturino's article, you will find that elevating the muzzle five degrees or so is sufficient...it would not have to be shot at a very high angle at all.
 
An accident is more like I stumbled, and my finger was on the trigger and that caused a negligent discharge. In this case "intent follows the bullet". Firing into the air to clear your weapon is preposterous. It is no different that firing your gun on New Year's as some of the great unwashed do each year end. I am reminded of know your target and what is behind it. . . as a rule if you don't know what you are shooting at, and what's beyond it, you are playing Russian Roulette with an innocent bystander like this.

IMHO, its criminally negligent homicide.
 
Man.
Mebbe too early, but...


I never want a muzzle-loader....you have to foul them in order to clean them.

Thats like cleaning out vacuum cleaner bags with the vacuum it came from.

I have enough chicken or egg discussions in my life as it is now.....I dont need any more.

Not to mention, horrible...no snap caps to be found for muzzle-loaders.

My point here being:

If there isn't more to this story, thats truly a sad, sad, soon to be imprisoned negligent homicidal gun owner.

If its really truly an accidental discharge, I hope he has a great lawyer.

If he intentionally fired the shot into the air to clean the rifle, he does and justly has a bad lawyer.

Which version we end up getting will tell us the quality of his representation.

Unless there was a signed confession before a lawyer showed up, I doubt we'll ever hear the real story.
 
I live in Wayne County Ohio. When this happened the local news reported it may be a hunting accident, which was stupid because it happened at 10:00 pm.

Today the radio said the Summit County Coroner ruled it a homicide but gave no other details. (Wayne County coroner isn't forensics qualified so autopsies are done by other counties).

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The Amish community won't push for charges to be brought against anyone as it's not their way but the local prosecutor should definitely do his job and get the guy for negligent homicide.
So sad for this to happen to this family.
 
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This is why I will never hunt on public lands. Too many people who think that if they can't hit anything beyond 500 yards, neither can the bullet on its own.

A sad story, I hope the guy doesn't get a mere slap on the wrist.
 
The topical part of this thread is whether it's possible for this to have occurred, and how to avoid it. Commentary on the likely judicial response or the religion of the region is simply not appropriate and will not be accepted.

If your post disappeared - it failed to meet the articulated standard.
 
I have watched a friend of my uncle unload his muzzleloader after an unsuccessful hunt: fired at 90 degree right angle into clay bank. I have been taught there is no excuse for firing a gun without being sure of your backstop.

I am so sorry for the girl and her family.
 
Mythbusters debunked the firing of a gun perpendicular to the ground and killing or hurting anyone, but firing parallel to the ground at an angle and all bets are off
 
blarby said:
If its really truly an accidental discharge, I hope he has a great lawyer.
Click to expand...

What? Accidental discharge? What is that? Can you explain to me what an "accidental discharge" is, as opposed to a "negligent discharge"? My understanding is, this was an automatic "negligent discharge" from the moment he pulled the trigger (because of gross negligence, because he casually fired into the air, with no concern for where the bullet might land).

I don't know about charging him with "negligent homicide", like some have suggested: that requires some legal expertise, it might get technical and there may be different interpretations of the law.
 
huntsman said:
Mythbusters debunked the firing of a gun perpendicular to the ground and killing or hurting anyone, but firing parallel to the ground at an angle and all bets are off
Click to expand...

Imo, this is a perfect case to show how Mythbusters is not "true" science. Despite their best intentions, without peer review some things can be overlooked. In this case, they way they tested that myth was to find the terminal velocity of a tumbling bullet and made the assumption that a bullet fired perfectly 90 degrees up would start tumbling on the way down. However, bullets are *very* stabilized, and I would put money down that the bullet would maintain a nose up attitude (if the bullet went straight up, stopped at the peak, and went back down, the aerodynamic forces would not be strong enough to turn the stabilized bullet around at the 'peak') and fall back with a much higher terminal velocity.
 
For all the talk about the stupidity, accidence, negligence of him firing in the air, there is one more thing....why even fire the gun in the first place?

If it was a modern in-line, why not back the breech plug out of the gun and push the bullet through. Loose powder is ruined. I don't know if pellets would be recyclable. The bullet is still shootable and the gun is easier to clean also.
 
Anyone care to calculate the odds of a random shot hitting a slow moving target, sight unseen, from a mile and half away, in the dark, where very few people might be at the time (a back country road at 10:00 at night)? My guess is that God could have easily intervened, as could fate, and that that young girl is with God now. Had that horse been one step ahead, or behind, the bullet would have missed.
 
Mythbusters debunked the firing of a gun perpendicular to the ground and killing or hurting anyone, but firing parallel to the ground at an angle and all bets are off
Click to expand...

The thing is its very, very hard to achieve a truly perpendicular muzzle angle. If you're setting up an experiment like them, then sure, but some yahoo firing their gun into the air almost always has some degree of slant induced. Based on the research I've seen it takes VERY little muzzle slant before that bullet becomes lethal again.

Anyone care to calculate the odds of a random shot hitting a slow moving target, sight unseen, from a mile and half away, in the dark, where very few people might be at the time (a back country road at 10:00 at night)? My guess is that God could have easily intervened, as could fate, and that that young girl is with God now. Had that horse been one step ahead, or behind, the bullet would have missed.
Click to expand...

Religious discussions about a hypothetical higher power intervening don't really fit cases like this. He played a mathematical odds game and he (or rather, a young girl) lost. Fate played no part in this - stupidity did.
 
huntsman said:
Mythbusters debunked the firing of a gun perpendicular to the ground and killing or hurting anyone, but firing parallel to the ground at an angle and all bets are off
Click to expand...
100% false. Basic physics say that an object thrown/launched perpendicular to the ground will land with the same velocity at which it was thrown/launched. Therefore, a bullet fired straight up will kill someone if it comes down on top of their head. Factor in wind on the bullet and atmospheric pressures though, and the bullet will most certainly not land on the person who fired the gun.


This is truly unfortunate though. While it was a case of negligence, I don't think he could be charged with homicide based on the fact of a true 1 in 1,000,000 shot. It says though that he was cleaning the gun, so maybe he thought it was unloaded and pulled the trigger to drop the hammer?
 
Interesting find:

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

This paper states that a 30-06 shot straight up in the air, perpendicular to the ground, will reach its terminal velocity while falling, which is approx 300fps. The resulting energy is approx 30ft lbs. [note added: a heavier bullet should return at a somewhat higher velocity with higher energy]

While the military considered that 60ft lbs is needed for a disabling wound, I somewhere recall that a high end pellet gun can deliver 20ft lbs of energy and kill small animals, sometimes people.

Let's even consider a 3lb pike, placed 10ft above your head and then released. Would that be harmful? I think the answer is obvious.

Thus, shooting any bullet in the air at any angle at any time is ...reckless and could easily cause harm. This should be obvious to the most casual observer.

Shooting at a slight angle upwards serves only to dramatically increase the chances of a bullet inflicting a wound or killing someone, should it strike a person. This should also be obvious.

Respectfully,

J
 
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Ranger30-06 said:
100% false. Basic physics say that an object thrown/launched perpendicular to the ground will land with the same velocity at which it was thrown/launched.
Click to expand...

Basic physics would assume a vaccum. The Earth is not a vaccum and the bullet will return to Earth at a terminal velocity. It will neither reach the height it would in a vaccum, nor accelerate on its return at the same rate as in a vaccum
 
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Long Range ML--Quicktarget Maximum Range Results

Yes--the earth has an atmosphere and drag is THE factor on bullet speed (terminal verlocity) at point of impact on a maximum range shot.

This accident illustrates why I did not take an uphill shot on a doe standing on the top of a ridge with my .45 cal. inline this year. I hunt with a resized pure lead Gould Express bullet (Lyman 457122--a famous .45-70 bullet). My hunting load produces a muzzle velocity of 1460 fps but I've launched this bullet as fast as 1830 fps from my inline too.

Greg Danas, the "firearms expert" quoted in the USA Today newspaper story is an idiot for saying that "For a bullet to kill someone after traveling a mile and a half is a practical impossibility." so, just for kicks, I ran 1830 fps through Qucktarget Unlimited (from the Quickload software package). Even when I back off to 1460 fps, the range is only reduced from 3111 yards to 2943 yards (still well over 1-1/2 miles). Notice that the results are very consistent with the previously posted bar graph for the .45-70, just as I expected from my inline when shooting the famous .45-70 Gould Express bullet! Also notice that the impact velocity and energy are 355 fps (242 mph) / 180 ft-lbs. I sure wouldn't want to be in the way of it!

By the way, I did get a doe for my freezer a few minutes later with a shot into the hillside.

-Cal

Here's the 1830 fps result:

Sight-IN Data : Instrumental Readings Barometric Pressure : 26 in.Hg
Altitude : 200.0 m Temperature : 42 °F
Humidity : 70 % Angle of Site : 0.0 deg
Latitude of Site : 45.37414 deg Longitude of Site : -122.376254 deg
Direction to Target : 66.0 deg Canting of Gun : 0.0 deg
Wind Speed : 0.0 km/h Direction of Wind : 0.0 deg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullet : .457, 330, LYM LFNHP 457122
Bullet Weight : 350.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity : 1830.0 ft/s
Ballistic Coefficients
BC1 = 0.270, @V > 549 m/s
BC2 = 0.267, @V > 427 m/s
BC3 = 0.265, @V > 0 m/s
Drag Model used : G1
Sectional Density of Standard Projectile : 1 lb./sq.in.
File: G1-SAAMI Standard model
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calculate Maximum Horizontal Range :

Maximum Horizontal Range ............ 3111 yd :what:
Angle of Elevation .................. 34.61 deg
Angle of Descent .................... 64.71 deg
Total Flight Time ................... 25.37 sec
Impact Velocity ..................... 355 ft/s
Impact Energy ....................... 180.05 ft-lbs
Vertex Height ....................... 909 yd
Vertex Range ........................ 1952 yd
Velocity at Vertex .................. 340 ft/s
Time to Vertex ...................... 10.64 sec
 
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Years ago, on new years eve my next door neighbor's youngest child was hit in the foot by a "falling" round. The shot went cleanly through the foot, straight down. Probably fire from an idiot gang banger.

6 inches in another direction and the round could have come straight down through her skull.

I learned about trajectories when my Old man caught me picking pinecones off the tops of trees with my .22.... When I was SIX. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO excuse for the gentleman's utter negligence.
 
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