Escaped Pitbull made me glad I had a gun today

[Surefire]

Surefire, don't take offense. I was just kidding about outlawing Boxers, although it is true that my dog has had bad luck with the breed. Another Boxer attacked my dog because the Boxer's owner was playing with my dog, and the Boxer got jealous. I think there must be bad chemistry between Boxers and Pitbulls.

No biggie, I know you were joking.



I think the tension between the breeds occurs due to both having somewhat dominant traits.


The lines also make a difference IMO. A "pet" line is usually much more easy going than a "working line"--for example the German Shepherds, Rotts and Boxers bred for police work tend to be a lot more "difficult" (for inexperienced handlers) than these same dogs bred for "pet".

I made sure my dog was bred for good temperament, and I took the precautions of obedience training, socialization (with people, and other animals), and also raised him with firm love. I credit the socialization and training for getting the most out of him.

 

[2nd Amendment]

And as has been mentioned, the "pitbull" in question likely isn't a pitbull anyway. But like you said, it sells better than saying lab...

 

[Surefire]

We need to differentiate "bites" from "fatal attacks" IMO.

I agree that Labs bite and don't get reported in the media, but how many pure bred Lab fatal attacks are there? I don't know, I'm asking. I suspect not too many, because in general they tend to make their point and stop. I know some pure labs will go all the way like with any breed, but the only Lab attack I've seen the dog bit once, drew some blood, and then stopped as soon as the person backed down. Has there been studies to determine FATAL dog bites by breed?

Being soft biters (in general) and also balanced in dominance (not too dominant, but also not too shy/submissive) I have a hard time believing labs would be super high in FATAL attacks, unless I see the numbers.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I agree that Labs bite and don't get reported in the media, but how many pure bred Lab fatal attacks are there? I don't know, I'm asking. I suspect not too many, because in general they tend to make their point and stop. I know some pure labs will go all the way like with any breed, but the only Lab attack I've seen the dog bit once, drew some blood, and then stopped as soon as the person backed down. Has there been studies to determine FATAL dog bites by breed?

Well, consider that there are only about 20 fatal dog attacks per year in this country, while there are many millions of large and powerful dogs here. Do the math. This is a non-issue. More people are killed by their horses than by dogs each year. We need to butch up and take responsibility for our own behavior around dogs we don't know, and for our own dogs behaviors, and stop trying to label any dog breed as a killer. You are playing into someones game that way.

 

[Surefire]

We need to butch up and take responsibility for our own behavior around dogs we don't know, and for our own dogs behaviors, and stop trying to label any dog breed as a killer. You are playing into someones game that way.

Absolutely, I agree with you.

I just brought that up for the sake of discussion, and was curious if there was any data on that.

 

[io333]

Here we go again. Seems to be dog attack week again on all the gun boards. Oh well, ***:

I use Fox 5.3 pepper spray a LOT on stray dogs that attack us when I walk my pup at night. So far it has always worked (5 times so far I think). I've read tons of net stories about dog attacks not being stopped by firearms, and and cannot recall EVER reading a story about Fox 5.3 not working on a dog.


It seems to me that it is very possible that pepper spray is far more effective in *immediately* stopping a dog attack, when compared to a firearm. A firearm may be more lethal, but against a dog, it is SLOW in stopping an attack. Dog's don't know what it means when they're shot like people do, and don't know they're supposed to quit after being hit.


The only problem is that the 5.3 is starting to get EXPENSIVE.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I just brought that up for the sake of discussion, and was curious if there was any data on that.

Yes, there are such studies but conclusions are not possible due to a couple of flaws. Firstly, all breeds that were involved in the study were very definite breeds, except for Pitbulls. For Pitbulls, they created a new category called "Pitbull Type Breeds." So, for instance German Shepherd get their own category, but the Pitbull category is made up of about five different breeds, and mix breeds, that looked sort of alike. This naturally inflates the number of hits you get on the Pitbull breed for fatal bites. It works out to one-third of fatal bites for members of the "Pitbull Type Breeds." I think that Rotwiellers beat them out by a little. Keep in mind, again, we are talking about a total of about 20 deaths per year from all breeds put together. That said, it is also true that Pitbulls are popular among criminals and bad guys. This class of person is also the type who tends to encourage aggressive behavior in his dogs. If we eliminated dogs owned by criminals, and just dealt with ordinary family pets, the number of deaths from Pitbulls would be about even with those attributed to any of the large breeds raised in similar circumstances. By far, the environment in which the dog is raised is far more controlling a factor than its breed when it comes to a tendency to bite.

 

[Surefire]

If we eliminated dogs owned by criminals, and just dealt with ordinary family pets, the number of deaths from Pitbulls would be about even with those attributed to any of the large breeds raised in similar circumstances. By far, the environment in which the dog is raised is far more controlling a factor than its breed when it comes to a tendency to bite.

Definitely agree. I think criminals (especially gang members) that buy dogs often WANT them breeded to be fighters, attackers, etc. Further, I think these owners also have a tendency to abuse the animals in order to make them meaner, and put ZERO effort into socializing. They just tie their dog up cruely, and expect it to guard their illegal enterprise (i.e. drugs).


I think dogs raised in a loving pet environment (and also bred and socialized well) are MANY times less at risk of snapping.

Further, Pit Bulls that are traced to legit, responsible breeders, AND are raised by a responsible family will NOT make the news--they will be good dogs and thus won't draw the media's hysteria.

 

[Hardware]

For those who are interested;

http://www.fataldogattacks.com/

STUDY FINDINGS:
After reviewing over 431 cases of fatal dog attacks it is apparent there is no single factor that translates in a lethal encounter between a person and a dog(s). A fatal dog attack is always the culmination of past and present events that include: inherited and learned behaviors, genetics, breeding, socialization, function of the dog, physical condition and size of the dog, reproductive status of dog, popularity of breed, individual temperament, environmental stresses, owner responsibility, victim behavior, victim size and physical condition, timing and misfortune.

While many circumstances may contribute to a fatal dog attack, the following three factors appear to play a critical role in the display of canine aggression towards humans;

1. Function of the dog - (Includes: dogs acquired for fighting, guarding/protection or image enhancement)

2. Owner responsibility - (Includes: dogs allowed to roam loose, chained dogs, dogs and/or children left unsupervised, dogs permitted or encouraged to behave aggressively, animal neglect and/or abuse)

3. Reproductive status of dog - (Includes: unaltered males dogs, bitches with puppies, children coming between male dog and female dog in estrus)

Pretty much says it all.

 

[joab]

but how many pure bred Lab fatal attacks are there? I don't know

How many pure bred pit attacks are there? I don't know.

If you listen past the media sound bite the dogs, around here at least, turn out to be Pit/Lab mixes.
So one could argue that they are not pit bull attacks at all, but Lab attacks,
if we're gonna pick and choose which lineage did the deed.

Growing up it was those Doberman dogs with the brain tumor that did all the attacking.

Popular wisdom had it that the Warlocks were born with a brain tumor that cause them to routinely turn on their masters

German Shepards weree so inbred that it caused breed instability and they were just timebombs waiting to eat your baby.

In the 40s, I believe, there was a movement to ban Ridgebacks because they were back biters. They were thw only dog that you could not stare down because if you turned your back they would stalk you as if you were one the lions they were bred to hunt

Dogs bite, popular dogs bite more because there are more of them, simple math.

I've been bitten 23 times mostly by Cockers and Poodle mutts.
A wound from a Dalmation took over a year to heal.

Never been bitten by a Pit mostly because the powners knew that they had a dog with a bad rep and took proper precautions.

The biggest puppy dog o my route was a Rott, the absolute meanest, that invoked mortal fear in myself and any other tech that went to the house, was a Cocker named "Puppy"

 

[Johnny Guest]

Dog breed ban vs. Owner responsibility

It has been mentioned that many who would outlaw certain dog breeds are the same who would outlaw guns. Good point, if not pressed too far. Most of those on this board are concerned more with firearms rights, Amendment II, RKBA, and so forth than dogs, cars, aviation, and the like. Most shooting enthusiasts are more for RESPONSIBLE gun use and ownership (people exercising SELF control) than gun control. In other words, "Don't control my guns. I'll take care of that. If I don't do right, hold ME responsible."

I believe a viable solution is to make dog owners and handlers responsible for their animals. I have a 100 lb+ yellow Lab. I take responsibility for him. Leash, fence, vaccinations, decent food, vet care, the whole thing. If I myownself act irresponsibly with or toward Ben, I am to be held to account for him. I'll bet LawDog feels the same about HIS big ol' mastiff. And until one of US allows our dog to do something vicious, people can just leave the dogs, and US, alone.

Best,
Johnny

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I believe a viable solution is to make dog owners and handlers responsible for their animals. I have a 100 lb+ yellow Lab. I take responsibility for him. Leash, fence, vaccinations, decent food, vet care, the whole thing. If I myownself act irresponsibly with or toward Ben, I am to be held to account for him. I'll bet LawDog feels the same about HIS big ol' mastiff. And until one of US allows our dog to do something vicious, people can just leave the dogs, and US, alone.

No doubt that you and I agree on that, but the problem is that we agree because of the type of people we are. There is, however, a type of person who, when he hears, for example, that youth gangs like switch blades, wants to ban switch blades. The other type says, let's hold people responsible for what they do, rather than banning or punishing the possession of some object or animal. Unfortunately, the number of the former type, i.e., the type that blames the availability of certain objects or animals, has been steadily growing in this country as the dumbing down process continues.

 

[joab]

Local talk show talking head recently said that since it is impossible to hold owners accountable then the only reasonable thing to do is to ban the dogs, and not just pits..

Here's my plan
Since my research has found that there are certain circumstances that contribute to dog attacks
Dogs left on chains
Pack mentality
Lack of owner control
Poor Breeding practices ( Weird Mixes)

1) Any large dog must be kept behind a secure, well maintained fence at least 6ft tall (taller for larger dogs or dogs known to be jumpers). Habitual chaining would be illegal

2) Dog's area must be large enough for the dog to get sufficient exercise. ( there is a mandated amount of acreage for livestock why not pets)

3)You must have a license to breed and a permit to have an unneutered animal ( I know that is a sticky one)

4) All dogs must be registered, registration fees are by the lb

5) Possession of an unregistered dog would be at least a 1rst degree misdemeanor. ( possibly first time offender leniency)

6)Unregistered breeding would be at least a 1rst degree misdemeanor

7) Contributing to the visciousness of an animal would be at least a 1rd degree misdemeaner, any subsequent offense would be a 3rd degree felony

8) dog owners woould be able to sue anybody contributing to the viciousness of their dog , through taunting, in civil court

10) no more than 2 large dogs per household if space permitted

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Joab, no offense, but are you sure you are on the right website? We are freedom advocates here. The "Governmet Should Regulate Everything" website is www.govshouldregeverything.org.

 

[joab]

When the people fail to regulate themselves the goverment should step in.
What's wrong with forcing people to take responsibility for the damage that their possessions can do to society.
We regulate cars and drivers, we regulate buildings as far as public safety goes.
We are responsible for our children and any harm they cause why not be responsible for our dogs

We are freedom advocates here.

Actually this is a pro gun site.
Don't try to paint me as some liberal statist just because I don't agree that freedom = anarchy

 

[2nd Amendment]

OK, joab, thx. You go ahead and get those rules put in place. Just means that A) I'm that much closer to becoming my own personal Waco, and B) I'll be able to count on my dogs backing me up when the time comes.

 

[kngflp]

I too think you need to be licensed to breed dogs, there are far to many dogs out there as it is. You have all these idiots out there making up breeds buy mixing two cute dogs like cocka-poos and such. If all dogs that were not to be bred were fixed then we wouldn't have our shelters overflowing. Sometimes I think it would be a good idea to transfer this idea over to the human race as well.
I wish we could just hold the owner responsible.

 

[joab]

OK, joab, thx. You go ahead and get those rules put in place. Just means that A) I'm that much closer to becoming my own personal Waco, and B) I'll be able to count on my dogs backing me up when the time comes.

OK you keep all your mangy inbred mutts on chains and in poorly maintained fences and someday some victim will own your little compound.

Hell, let all your neighbors breed fighting dogs and undisiplined packs that run the streets looking for a fight. They would just be exercising their freedoms as well.

I'm sure all the Rambo wannabees here will be more than happy to shoot the animal after the fact.

That should help some kids wounds heal faster or give some peace of mind to the mother of a dead child

 

[LawDog]

And that does it for this one.

Lights out.

LawDog