Evaluate this statement please

[Hondo 60]

Is you sure that if you actually hit something (or someone) they'd know the difference?

Nope, I'm sure they wouldn't. But a faster moving projectile will penetrate further.
Where I live, outside right now it's about 15 degrees.
Meaning everyone will have a HEAVY winter coat.
a 38 spl round "might" not penetrate enough through heavy winter garb.
a 357 round AFAIK "will"

I like that peace of mind.
even if I'm wrong, that feeling of security helps me live a more peaceful life.

 

[White Horseradish]

Snubbies are awesome. I know this because Steve McGarrett used his to take a sniper off a roof three blocks away.

I don't understand the obsession with light weight in snubbies, and the combination with .357 is just ridiculous. I often carry a stainless Charter Undercover and I don't see what is so heavy about it. As friend of mine says, if you want to carry less weight around skip a couple of sandwiches and lose a pound. Should help with concealment, too.

I can put the five rounds from it into about a pie plate at 15 feet. I know this because I actually shoot the thing. Had I a .357, and a light alloy one at that, I probably wouldn't. Who knows what I could hit with it.

When I took the class for my carry permit a woman there had one of those. I couldn't believe it, but she did put the 50 rounds required by the shooting qualification through it. She quite literally beat her hand blue doing that. Being a reasonable person she asked the people at the gun shop where the class was what she could trade it for immediately after.

I think I would take a gun I actually shoot with good enough performance over one I don't shoot with theoretically better performance.

 

[Old Fuff]

Where I live, outside right now it's about 15 degrees.
Meaning everyone will have a HEAVY winter coat.
a 38 spl round "might" not penetrate enough through heavy winter garb.
a 357 round AFAIK "will"

You need to get an old coat, put it on a post and see...

Most cold/winter coats made today are quilted style, not of the older kind like a Navy pea jacket. .38 Special ammunition (standard load) were used in snubbies from about the mid-1930's on. If heavy overcoats were bulletproof to any degree it would have been known long before this.

As an aside: If you must carry a .357 snubby you picked the right one (Ruger SP 101) but most of this discussion has been centered on Smith & Wesson's J-frame. Try your .357 loads in Ruger's new .357 LCR and see how that works.

 

[jfh]

This has been reported on in other threads--FYI,

some two years ago I embarked on a reloading project to specifically evaluate short-barrel revolver ammo performance. Among the firearms I used were

• S&W M&P 340 (scandium, 13.3 oz, 38/357)
• S&W 442 (alum., 14.3 oz, 38S only)
• S&W 60-3" (SS, 23 oz(?), 38/357
• S&W 360 (scandium, 13.3 oz, the 38S-only version)
• S&W 640 (SS, 21 oz(?), 38/357)

I shot several different versions of factory ammo as well, in both 38 and 357 loads, including the (in)famous BB 20A--e.g., the 'heavy 38 Special' 158-gr that runs 1000 fps from a short barrel. (It does.)

Part of the goals of this exercise was to get my hand fully-conditioned for effectively shooting, in a SD fashion, my carry gun--the M&P 340. The criteria for that effectiveness is Old Fuff's quad five drill--5 shots, 5 yards, 5-inch group, 5 seconds or less. I got to that point with the M&P 340. I even got to that point including a reload. I am all fumblefingers, however, and if it comes down to reloading, I plan on having reached the trunk gun (SU-16C) first--at least under certain circumstances.

After shooting a several thousand rounds (including at least 1000 from the 340, 15,000-plus from the 640), I found that a 158-gr. bullet running about 900-915 fps from a 1 & 7/8" barrel (the M&P 340, 13.3 oz) was all I could shoot and still get (up to) ten shots off before my hand was done.

Based on my reloading experience, the best a 38 Special 158-gr. round can do from a 2" barrel is about 860 fps--and that is running the round at CIP 38 Special pressures, not SAAMI 38+P. The typical (Remington) 38+P LSWC-HP round now does about 800 fps.

No one makes a reduced-pressure 357 SD load that runs about 900 fps--but they should, IMO.

So, I now build some 357 ammo using the Hornady / Speer 158-gr. LSWC-HP swaged bulletsd, up to about 915 fps from the nominal 2" barrels of the 340 or the 640. Beyond that, the bullet starts skidding and / or blowing out.

To shoot a 158-gr. bullet running at 900 with basic SD proficiency, from a lightweight takes practice. IMO.

Jim H.

 

[Guillermo]

I just took my Colt Cobra, circa 1957, and put it on the kitchen scale.

15.2 oz empty.

Is all of these titanium, scandium, reinforced styrofoam really only 2 oz lighter? Heck, most of that is probably extra steel in the 6 round cylinder.

 

[SwampWolf]

Though I guess I'm in agreement with those that question the practicality of having a snub nose revolver chambered in .357 Magnum in terms of ballistics, I just don't see the downside to it (everything else being equal in terms of cost, configuration and weight). You don't have to shoot the gun with the Magnum cartridge if you don't want to but you can if you do.
Furthermore, it would seem that a revolver made to accomodate .357 Magnum ammunition would make a better candidate for shooting +p or +P+ .38 Special ammunition in terms of better handling the accelerated wear and tear on the gun imposed by the increased recoil and heat as generated by the +P stuff over conventional .38 Special fodder (just speculating here folks, I have no data supporting this "theory").
Finally, in the admittedly unusual circumstance-particularly involving an emergency scenario- of not being able to locate .38 Special ammunition where .357 Magnums can be found, you could at least use the weapon, excess recoil, muzzle blast, inefficient ballistics and all. The converse is not true.
Like I said, I just don't see the downside to having a snub nose chambered in .357 Magnum and I can see some potential advantages to it.

 

[Bubba613]

I just don't see the downside to it (everything else being equal in terms of cost, configuration and weight).

And there's the rub. It is not equal, ever AFAIK. Manufacturers know the .357 is a "premium" feature and they charge accordingly. The guns also command more on the used market.
They are also not equal in regard to the muzzle blast, noise and flash--all of which I consider a huge downside to the .357mag.

of not being able to locate .38 Special ammunition where .357 Magnums can be found,

There is no scenario like that I can think of that would pass the laugh test.

 

[Sam1911]

of not being able to locate .38 Special ammunition where .357 Magnums can be found,

There is no scenario like that I can think of that would pass the laugh test.

Oh, don't laugh yourself quite to death over it.

It happened to me during the Obama panic. Found like ONE box of .38 Specials at four stores -- and it was priced over $50.

Gander Mountain had several boxes of .357s left and they were closer to $35.

Odd, and not the sort of thing that I'd consider too awful important when purchasing a gun, but it HAS happened.

 

[oldbanjo]

I've carried a S & W MD36 around 30 years, shooting snakes and turtles is no problem with it (without snake shot). All you need is some practice. I got my Girlfriend an Air Weight S & W. I've carried a SP101, 357Mag about 10 years, only because a 38 will sometimes bounce off a Car Door.

 

[Bubba613]

It happened to me during the Obama panic. Found like ONE box of .38 Specials at four stores -- and it was priced over $50.

Gander Mountain had several boxes of .357s left and they were closer to $35.

Odd, and not the sort of thing that I'd consider too awful important when purchasing a gun, but it HAS happened.

Not based on that story. You were perfectly able to buy .38spc, at four different stores no less.

 

[SwampWolf]

They are also not equal in regard to the muzzle blast, noise and flash--all of which I consider a huge downside to the .357mag.

I didn't say that, did I. In fact, I acknowledged the obvious when I noted:

They are also not equal in regard to the muzzle blast, noise and flash--all of which I consider a huge downside to the .357mag.

The "all other things being equal" caveat is a means to discuss an issue "for the sake of argument" and nothing more.

Quote:
of not being able to locate .38 Special ammunition where .357 Magnums can be found,

There is no scenario like that I can think of that would pass the laugh test.

Convenient for you, I suppose, to leave out the qualifying preface to my point:

Finally, in the admittedly unusual circumstance...

Still don't see the downside.

 

[SwampWolf]

Quote:
It happened to me during the Obama panic. Found like ONE box of .38 Specials at four stores -- and it was priced over $50.

Gander Mountain had several boxes of .357s left and they were closer to $35.

Odd, and not the sort of thing that I'd consider too awful important when purchasing a gun, but it HAS happened.

Not based on that story. You were perfectly able to buy .38spc, at four different stores no less.

So, Bubba, you can't stretch your imagination without suppressing a giggle to envision a scenario where, instead of only .38 Special ammunition being available, only .357 Magnum ammunition was? And, in my admittedly (but plausible) extreme circumstance situation, if only .357 Magnum ammunition could be found and you were armed with a .38 Special revolver, well, you might want to amble on over to the hardware department in the hopes of finding some other kind of tool to get you through the emergency. On the other hand, if you were armed with a .357 Magnum revolver and only .38 Special ammunition could be located, well, you're good to head for the check-out and maintain an armed status.
Again, I'm seeing no downside.

 

[Rexster]

The myth of .357 being no more effective than .38 from a 2" barrel has been repeatedly debunked, for well over two decades. Both cartridges lose velocity when fired in shorter barrels. .357 Mag maintains a velocity advantage over .38 Special loads.

As for .357 being fired from J-frames, well, thanks, but NOT for me. SP101, no problem. My tolerance threshold in J-snubs tops out at .38 +P in Airweights, and standard velocity is plenty enough in Airlites.

To be clear, if ALL I carried was 2" snubbies, I might stay with .38 +P, but I like to carry longer-barreled .357 sixguns, because I shoot medium/large-framed 4" (and up) DA revolvers better than any handgun, and also notice an accuracy advantage with a 3.06" SP101 over the snubbier ones. I prefer to carry one type of spare ammo for both my snubbies and larger sixguns. So, the J-frames stay in the safe, and my SP101s go with me just about everywhere.

 

[Rexster]

I don't consider the flash and blast of the .357 Magnum to be a downside at all. My opponent is getting more of that flash and blast in HIS face than I am in mine. Darryl Bolke, currently a gun writer, and formerly an LE trainer, wrote that he and his colleagues, back in the day, dubbed the SP101 snubby the "hand-held flash-bang." Train for the flash and blast; embrace it.

Moreover, keep in mind that TRAINING ammo is not loaded with flash retardant in the powder, whereas premium duty ammo is loaded with flash retardant. The ammo one uses at the moment of truth should be the good stuff.

 

[Bubba613]

So, Bubba, you can't stretch your imagination without suppressing a giggle to envision a scenario where, instead of only .38 Special ammunition being available, only .357 Magnum ammunition was?

Based on that one should carry a .327 Federal because you never know when .32 S&W will be hard to get.
No, I cannot imagine a scenario where .357mag is more plentiful than .38spc. Not one that passes the laugh test.
Nor would the mere possibility of such a thing persuade me that a .357mag snub is preferable to a .38.
(Note that I actually carry a Smith 340pd)

 

[TMann]

"There is no reason to *EVER* go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does NOT result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2” barrels."

I think that the word "EVER" is the key issue in this statement. I'm sure that someone can think of some unusual situation in which it would be reasonable to go with a .357 round. In general, though, I agree with using only .38 specials in 2" J-frames, particularly the lightweight models.

TMann

 

[Sam1911]

Not based on that story. You were perfectly able to buy .38spc, at four different stores no less.

Er, ok. What I was trying to say was that, out of four stores, only one store had ANY .38 Spc. and that ONE BOX was priced at over $50. At the time, .357 was more available -- multiple boxes to pick from -- and something around 30% cheaper.

Is that more clear, now?

If so then, this ...

No, I cannot imagine a scenario where .357mag is more plentiful than .38spc. Not one that passes the laugh test.

... can be laid to rest as you now know someone who had it happen to them, personally, with witnesses.

Now, is it still funny enough to laugh at? Well, probably, in a sort of, "Obama's making it so we can only buy really powerful ammo!11!," kind of way.

 

[Standing Wolf]

There's nothing wrong, grammatically or stylistically, with a split infinitive. And there never has been. Really. For centuries the finest writers have never shied away from splitting an infinitive when rhythm or good sense may recommend it.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn split infinitives and sentence fragments are considered acceptable in journalism schools.

 

[Bubba613]

Er, ok. What I was trying to say was that, out of four stores, only one store had ANY .38 Spc. and that ONE BOX was priced at over $50. At the time, .357 was more available -- multiple boxes to pick from -- and something around 30% cheaper.

One store had .357. One store had .38spc. I fail to see much difference here, certainly enough to justify the statement that .357mag is preferable because you might find ONLY .357mag available.
I probably sell 20 boxes of .38spc--if not more--for every box of .357mag. I pick up range brass. There are probably 50 pieces of .38spc to every piece of .357mag.
Still laughing.

 

[Bubba613]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn split infinitives and sentence fragments are considered acceptable in journalism schools.

OT but command of the English language is practically a thing of the past.

 

[357_]

I carry .357's in my 2" sp101.

The first numbers I could pull off the internet were from BuffaloBore and the bullets are all the same 125gr JHP

Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special
2 inch barrel - 921 fps (235 ft. lbs.)

Tactical Short Barrel Lower Recoil Low Flash 357 Magnum
1-7/8 inch barrel - 1,109 fps (341 ft. lbs.)

Both of those loads are low power, especially for BB ammo. But you asked for a snubby and this is ammunition that caters to the gun, coincidently it also has the narrowest gap. In full-house loads that gap grows quickly.

 

[Bellevance]

There's nothing wrong, grammatically or stylistically, with a split infinitive. And there never has been. Really. For centuries the finest writers have never shied away from splitting an infinitive when rhythm or good sense may recommend it.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn split infinitives and sentence fragments are considered acceptable in journalism schools.

Yep, they're both entirely acceptable everywhere--in journalism schools, in all standard college writing classes, by the editors at all national periodicals, and by those who copy-edit manuscripts for every major mainstream publisher.

As Bill Bryson points out in THE MOTHER TONGUE, those who decry the split infinitive "cling to a pointless affectation of usage that is without the support of any recognized authority of the last 200 years."

 

[HelterSkelter]

you will get about 2-3 hundred fps increase in muzzle velocity which results in significant Kinetic energy gains. it does seem a bit less accurate but at snubby ranges it's not an issue. also you get the added bonus of having a flashbang go off at your muzzle everytime you shoot. the recoil and muzzle flip won't really bother you unless you have delicate little lady hands lol. i'm a small guy and it only bothered me back when i had never shot anything stronger than a 22, after about 100 rounds it was barely noticeable to me.

if you don't mind a little sting get the .357, it's a little more power and you never now when you're going to need it.

also if you are ever in a situation where you are defending your life you are not going to notice recoil or flip very much, you will be full of adrenaline. ask anyone whos ever shot a deer before if they felt their recoil or if the loud crack hurt their ears. imagine how much more adrenaline you have when shooting at someone or something to save your life.

i will admit that i shoot the hottest and heaviest loads i can find for fun since i find the hurt to be the most fun part of shooting so i may be more desensitized than others.

 

[Sam1911]

SOME STORES had SEVERAL boxes of less expensive .357. One store had A (single) box of very expensive .38spc.

A little more clear yet?

Not sure why you're picking it apart and implying more than I've said.

certainly enough to justify the statement that .357mag is preferable because you might find ONLY .357mag available.

I already said that I wouldn't use that as a strongly compelling reason myself. However, it can happen, and it DID happen. Once. To me. If we had had a .38 Spc. gun instead of a .357, we would have only been able to shoot ONE box of ammo instead of many. And that would have been a shame.

I probably sell 20 boxes of .38spc--if not more--for every box of .357mag. I pick up range brass. There are probably 50 pieces of .38spc to every piece of .357mag.

Yup. Usually. In most cases. I'd be willing to say in almost every one. But not all.

Still laughing.

Me too.

 

[Bubba613]

Sam you're making this harder than it needs to be.
You first wrote:

It happened to me during the Obama panic. Found like ONE box of .38 Specials at four stores -- and it was priced over $50.

Gander Mountain had several boxes of .357s left and they were closer to $35.

Then it became:

Er, ok. What I was trying to say was that, out of four stores, only one store had ANY .38 Spc. and that ONE BOX was priced at over $50. At the time, .357 was more available -- multiple boxes to pick from -- and something around 30% cheaper.

Now it's:

SOME STORES had SEVERAL boxes of less expensive .357. One store had A (single) box of very expensive .38spc.

Yet at no time were you able to buy ONLY .357magnum. And that was the contention originally: that in a case where only .357mag was available the person with the .38 was SOL.
So I remain with a snicker here because the idea that .357mag will somehow be more obtainable than .38spc is absurd.
I think we've tortured this point beyond reason.