Examples of recent rebellions/civil wars where semi-auto rifles critical to the rebels' success?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by slinkiusmaximus, Feb 20, 2018.

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  1. Sovblocgunfan

    Sovblocgunfan Member

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    I think the “rifle behind every blade of grass” quote attributed to yamamoto (some debate about this, but I still believe he said it) is a good synopsis of what the IJA/IJN would have seen during a japanese invasion of the mainland US.
     
  2. George P

    George P Member

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    But not today, especially if they invaded the Left Coast.... ;)
     
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  3. NWPilgrim

    NWPilgrim Member

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    The flip side of the question is "would you really want to face off with govt troops WITHOUT semi-auto rifles?" Having semi autos does not mean you will be successful, but it levels the playing field a mite. The strongest deterrent is a well armed (of any sort of firearm) populace. If tens of millions of citizens/homes have firearms then any large scale oppression is going to be very costly. Even if those are bolt actions and revolvers. But if 1/3 of those are semi autos like the Garand, M1A, AR15, SR25, HK416, PTR91, FAL, SKS, AK47 style, etc then the level of difficulty to oppress goes up significantly.

    Besides a semi auto you need aircraft suppression (as the Mujahideen realized), explosives, and crew served weapons at a minimum. But starting with semi-autos would give a population a head start to defend itself.
     
  4. George P

    George P Member

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    who are also well organized with some form of a chain of command; otherwise you have small groups with poor intel, uncoordinated efforts against a military with every latest and greatest gizmo.
     
  5. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I would rather have artillery. And an Air Force. If I was close to water, a Navy would be helpful. The military has weapons that civilians don't have. A tyrant has to keep his military in line, in case they turn those weapons on him!
     
  6. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    Switzerland took in refugees of all catagories. They were interned and put to work - being a small country they could not support thousands of people simply lodging there for free. All the other things Switzerland provided for various nation's were the same. Including some materials and precision products.

    The Germans didn't avoid invading Switzerland because of the Alps, that whole region including bordering Germany, France, Austria and Italy are equally mountainous.
     
  7. petrel800

    petrel800 Member

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    Afghanistan. They've bogged down the two largest superpowers in the world. While arguments could be made that politics played a role in the success or failure of those wars, they managed to drag out conflicts long enough to have the USSR and the USA to all but abandon their goals and leave.

    Given the climate of today and the mindset. You don't have to win a war anymore. You just have to make a "civilized" nation play by rules while you play by none and then drag out the conflict as long as possible. The world today doesn't have the stomach or guts to do what was done during the World Wars.
     
  8. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    I guess that I would like to know exactly why your friend is asking. Does he have any presuppositions, and is looking for confirmation.

    For example, what if it is his idea that rebels/insurgents cannot effectively confront regular troops using only semi-auto weapons, and not full auto? And what if he then contends that based upon that premise that it does no good for ordinary citizens to own them? If so, then ask him if they would have more success if limited to manual actions.
     
  9. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    If semi-auto ARs, and similar small arms were not potentially effective in widespread population ownership the Marxists in gov would not be trying so hard to get rid of them. You can take that to the bank.
     
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  10. bnolsen

    bnolsen Member

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    The US military in its current state still wouldn't go after civilians. I'd be more worried about the DHS which seems to be far better equipped to take on the civilian populace. They are organized and we aren't. I wish some state governments would take on this whole mess and act as a rallying point around which to organize. The Constitution was a contract ratified by the states, and they need to make certain that the Federal government obeys the terms.
     
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  11. mjsdwash

    mjsdwash Member

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    Ireland used AR15's specifically (and famously AR 18's) to fight the British in what would be considered something halfway between a rebellion and a full civil war. the biggest, most expensive examples I can think of is the Vietnam war, the current Iraq/Afghanistan, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and so on. While automatic rifles were certainly involved, Vietnam had a lot of SKS's, and of course the Russians fought Afghans shooting bolt actions. I think the issue you will find is the easy way to write off the success of civilian forces as "enemies of freedom", from flag burning US haters, but no point in arguing with someone who has a strong, set, uninformed opinion, and has already dismissed any argument as the screaming of a caveman, no matter how logical. There are many examples of disarmament followed by genocide.
     
  12. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    Afghans we're using vintage Enfield .303 bolt-actions to good effect.
     
  13. bnolsen

    bnolsen Member

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    Fire once, but accurately, then get the hell out. It's been used against US troops as well.
     
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  14. GarySTL

    GarySTL Member

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    Don't forget that the families of these troops, and their officers, are not too far removed from additional armed citizens. Are troops attacking patriots in say Texas are going to be enthusiastic when their families might be under attack in Ohio?
     
  15. George P

    George P Member

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    DHS, FBI and all of the other 42 million Federal LE agencies......
     
  16. NWPilgrim

    NWPilgrim Member

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    Which also brings up the issue that it may not be just the authorities going after their remote families, but in a true rebellion, families of fighters on both sides become prime targets as well. You invade a foreign country and your fighters' families are safe back at home. You try to oppress your own countrymen and at some point after families suffer enough, then the families of the storm troopers become logical targets as well. Consider the Civil War on steroids of modern technology. Only insane people would want to bring that on unless they could disarm the populace first.
     
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  17. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Most amazing revolutions in my time was the fall of the various nations of the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. I spoke with a Romanian woman who told me she and other youths had nothing to live for. They marched towards the police who were shooting them down. People to the left and right of her dropped from being shot and this continued until the police got sick of shooting unarmed protesters. Runner up of successful revolutions would include the Arab Spring (but they weren't super bloody like the Reign of Terror in pre-Napoleon Paris).

    There were violent revolutions including the Tallyband overthrow of a Soviet puppet government in Afghanistan (but U. S. supplied Stinger missiles played a big part in neutralizing Soviet air superiority), the overthrow of many colonial governments by indigenous peoples (Viet Minh against French Colonial government), Algeria (but I think they had bolt actions) and a few others. Failed rebellions would include the Mau Mau in Kenya, Uighurs in China's Sinkiang province, Tibetans to Chinese sovereignty over Tibet, etc.
     
  18. Cayce Charles

    Cayce Charles member

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    My Father defended Henderson Field in Guadalcanal in WW2 with a bolt action 03 Springfield. At the time I was using a M14 in Vietnam and we discussed rate of fire. He said it's amazing how fast you can work that bolt in a human wave attack. I still prefer a bottom feeder or a lever action.
     
  19. ofitg

    ofitg Member

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    Perhaps you are referring to Hitler's Operation Tannenbaum, and SS Oberst Hermann Bohme's 1943 memorandum?

    Good reading, from gun rights author / NRA affiliate Stephen Halbrook -

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/halbrook.html

    ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  20. Sushigaijin

    Sushigaijin Member

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    I wasn't interested in "assault weapons" until I learned some details about the recent drug wars in Mexico. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

    In the beginning, the citizens, who were essentially disarmed by firearm laws (limited to non-military caliber, so essentially rimfire), illegally bought ARs and AKs and proceeded to go from town to town routing the well-armed cartel members, and took back a large portion of central Mexico. Later, the corrupt government essentially became the cartels, or vise versa, and the "revolution" ended when the government took control of the cartel wars from the citizens. There's a bunch of great documentaries on Netflix.

    Before I learned about these events, I was ambivalent. I had a bunch of handguns, but never really saw the personal use for an assault weapon. Immediately after I finished watching Cartel Land, I put in an order for an AR. I'm glad I did, because now I've been building them for fun and learned to reload too, but something about the helplessness of those unarmed people - helpless against the government, helpless against the gangsters - until they armed themselves, made we want a rifle right away. Civilians armed with assault weapons could absolutely take on a government, or an oppressive NGO, by using the same guerilla warfare that people have used all through the 20th century to drive the revolutions in South and Central America, and overseas. The government is loathe to turn the full might of the military against its people - it is very rare, even in despotic nations.
     
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  21. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    The Japanese - Yamamoto story is BS and not found in any research scholarly source. The Japanese had NO plans of invading the USA. They realized the impossibility of it because of the logistic difficulties and intrinsic strength of the USA before the Pearl Harbor attack. The strength was not the riflemen, that was never mentioned.

    Their planning was clear. They thought that the USA didn't have will to oppose their conquest of South East Asia which was their real goal. That was because we cut them off from resources due to their invasion of China. Because of successful surprise attacks on China and Russia earlier, and the success of those wars, they thought we would negotiate after a similar attack. Now, some Japanese didn't think so but were overwhelmed by the War Party. There was never any thought of invasion.

    Thus, if you bring it up as an example for the RKBA, sorry to say you are not convincing and are counterproductive.

    Similarly, with Switzerland. They like to just tell the militia story. As mentioned before, there were three reasons:

    1. There were plans to resist and form a central redoubt in the country. However, it was to make taking them over difficult. No one doubted they could but to face a resistance like Yugoslavia wasn't worth it.
    2. The Swiss cooperated more than they resisted. Products were supplied. Money hiddern and supplied. Some technical small trade occurred with the Allies through hidden products but German trade swamped that.
    3. The Alpine tunnels linking Germany to Italy were freely open to Germans. They were heavily mined and that was the most important threat to prevent occupation.

    So if you want to defend the RKBA, WWII is not your strongest suite and can make you look silly if someone knows history.
     
  22. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Gem, Admiral Yamamoto was killed during WW2 when U. S. Intelligence discovered he was to embark on an airplane at a known date, time and place. A flight of USAAF P-38s were ordered to intercept the plane and shoot it down, and that task was accomplished successfully. He therefor COULDN'T have said anything.
    The statement has never been vetted and is bogus, even if attributed to some other Japanese official.
     
  23. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Ask any Iraq or Afghanistan vet.
     
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  24. AlexanderA
    • Contributing Member

    AlexanderA Member

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    The Resistance against the German occupiers was armed by (a) native army stocks that were diverted to the guerrillas by sympathetic army officers, (b) airdrops from the Allies, and (c) captures from the Germans themselves. Almost nowhere was prewar civilian ownership of weapons a factor.
     
  25. zorro45

    zorro45 Member

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    A pretty good analysis of guerilla warfare in the 20th Century is
    The War Of The Flea: A Study of Guerrilla Warfare Theory and Practice
    by Robert Taber


    Usage http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/ cc.png by.png nc.png nd.png
    Topics War of the Flea, guerrilla, guerrilla war, warfare, war, rebellion, revolution, overthrow, right, fighter, rebel,
    Collection opensource
    Language English

    At one point it is claimed that Fidel Castro was down to 12 "Freedom Fighters" (not a fan, just quoting)

    Another good book which expounds on this theme is
    Total Resistance: Swiss Army Guide to Guerrilla Warfare and Underground Operations
    by Major H. von Dach Bern

    The fundamental attitude described in this book is one of preparedness, toughness, and sometimes, being a little mean to the enemy.
     
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