Exceeding Max Loads

[PCCUSNRET]

Warning! The load data listed below exceeds the Max load listed in a Lyman's reloading book.

A few days ago someone asked about using Alliant 2400 for reloading the .223 and someone else posted an old recipe from Lyman's listing a max load of 14 grs. I just happened to have about 8 lbs. of old Hercules 2400 I have been trying to find a use for so I decided to give this load a try. I started at 12.6 grs. and loaded up to 14 grs (stopped at 13.9 grs). I wasn't at all pleased with the results I was getting from any of the test loads so I figured I would just use this load for plinking. After I got back from the range and could get a good look at the brass from these test rounds I determined that 14 grs. was not causing any excessive pressure to the cases. I first tried 14.3 grs and the group tightened to less than 1 1/2". After seeing that this group ejected with no problem and the brass looked okay, I tried 5 more at 14.6 grs. The photo below shows the results of this group. I don't get groups like this every day so I was very pleased with this load. I am not suggesting that anyone try this, as I was using very old powder and it may not be as potent as the modern Alliant 2400. Based on the way these rounds shot in my gun today I think I have found a way to use up some of this old powder

 

[joneb]

You might find similar results using Blue Dot with a lesser charge , I use BD with 125gr jacketed in a bolt action 308 Win. I use it for varmints and fire forming cases. BD runs cool and clean so I can just bang away, it groups 2" 150 yrds.

I found the targets it was a Nosler 168 ballistic silver tip with 43.5gr of Varget that shot just under 2" at 200yds.

 

[steve4102]

After I got back from the range and could get a good look at the brass from these test rounds I determined that 14 grs. was not causing any excessive pressure to the cases

The 223 has a SAAMI rating of 55k psi. At what pressure do you think these pressure signs you seek will rear their ugly head in a 55K pressure round, 56K, 60K, 65K 70K? I am not sure what pressure signs you are looking for, but IME by the time you see them you are well past 55K. Most of the common over pressure signs, loose primer pockets, sticky bolt lift, etc. don't show up until you are past 65K and most likely into 70K territory. Just because you don't see high pressure doesn't mean it ain't there.

 

[35 Whelen]

You worked the loads up in the right way. I say enjoy your new-found load. Besides, just because it's maximum in the Lyman manual, doesn't mean it's maximum in your gun. Just keep watching for pressure signs.

35W

 

[56hawk]

This is where it helps to have a program like QuickLoad. I don't think you mentioned the bullet weight, but a 55 grain bullet would only get you around 40,000 psi with that load. I've used QuickLoad to predict pressures that are way over the book max for 500 S&W and 454 Casull. So far no problems or signs of excess pressure.

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information

a) The .223 Rem is based on the 1950 design .222 Rem case head.
That case head is good for 75,000 psi and long brass life.

b) Contrast that with the .270 Win case head based on the 1889 design 7.65x53mm Mauser case head built with a Large Boxer primer. That case head is good for 67,000 psi and long brass life.

Here is the irony;
Remington registered the 223 at SAAMI for 55,000 psi. [36% safety margin]
Winchester registered the 270 at SAAMI for 65,000 psi. [3% safety margin]

When I say safety, that is not personal safety, that is margin to keep from having loose primer pockets and thus short brass life.

I can show Mauser case heads at 100,000 psi and 223 case heads at 100,000 psi.
In both the primer pocket has doubled in size.

So I am not worried about pressure in the .223 with stable powders.
But I would really question if one wants high pressure with 2400.
I can see a reason for reduced loads with 2400 in the .223, but not hot loads.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

Thanks for the information and concern. I did forget to mention that these were 55 gr Hornady V-Max bullets and the brass was once fired LC (military with primer crimp removed). The rifle used was a Remington 700 with heavy barrel. I did not use any crimp on the bullets for this test. So if the QuickLoad program is correct that this only 40k PSI with this load, that this really isn't that "hot" of a load. As for the signs I look for when checking for excessive pressure, the include difficulty of ejecting the brass, rounded, not flattened primers and split necks. Some of the brass used in this test were shot in AR's and had "dings" in the middle of the brass. These loads weren't hot enough to completely remove these dents. As mentioned, I only this powder because I have a surplus and don't want it to end up as fertilizer.

 

[Slamfire]

Was not 2400 a rifle powder used in the 22 Hornet?

Powder lots vary. You can see the differences in reloading manuals between HP-38/W231 and H110/W296. H110 is sold by Hodgdon and W296 by Winchester, they are the same powder and yet in loading manuals you see different maximum charges. Same for HP-38/W231.

(I think is funny I have an article by Ken Warner, he "gave up" trying to get W231 to shoot well in the 45 ACP but loved HP-38, especially at low to medium velocities. Since these are the same powders his recommendation must be the placebo effect or the freebie effect on powder performance)

What that shows is the difference between lots. Your lot may be a bit slower. Your rifle may not produce as much pressure.

I called Alliant about the use of Blue Dot in the .223. There is data, by Seafire, on jacketed in the 223. Alliant does not recommend Blue Dot in the 223 because small changes in components make for big changes in pressure. Basically it is too sensitive.

I remember reading of one blowup of a rifle with Blue Dot, a 257 weatherby. The reloader was convinced it was a double charge, but maybe, it was not. Maybe it was due to a pressure spike with Blue Dot.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

Was not 2400 a rifle powder used in the 22 Hornet?

From what I've read about this powder that is correct. Supposedly, it was named 2400 because it would generate 2400 FPS from a Hornet rifle using 45 grain bullet.

(I think is funny I have an article by Ken Warner, he "gave up" trying to get W231 to shoot well in the 45 ACP but loved HP-38, especially at low to medium velocities. Since these are the same powders his recommendation must be the placebo effect or the freebie effect on powder performance)

What that shows is the difference between lots. Your lot may be a bit slower. Your rifle may not produce as much pressure.

I agree. The powder I have seems to be pretty mild compared to commercial .223 rounds from Winchester, Federal and several others I have tried in this gun. I'll see how many loads I can get out of the brass and if I see the brass is short lived I'll cease using the powder for the .223.

 

[joneb]

I known my above post seems irrelevant, but I threw it in there to open up some possibilities. If Blue Dot works in my bolt action .308 win why not 2400 in a .223 ?
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=371170
There is a bunch of BD data out there for .233 rem so why not 2400 ?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have a friend who has some 2400 that's so old the can actually says 2400 "Rifle Powder" on the front!!! That's some old stuff and it still works in his 7.5 Swiss ammo! LOL

 

[PCCUSNRET]

I shot another 60 rounds today using this powder. Unfortunately, I couldn't duplicate the group in initial post. However I can't complain, as most groups were just at or under an inch. I did have a couple flyers that caused two of the groups to reach almost 2". After shooting amost 100 rounds using this powder I am pretty confident that this load isn't near max in the gun I'm using. I have tried several different types of brass and none have shown any signs of excessive pressure. The rounds I shot today were fire formed brass so I had hoped for a little better grouping than what I got. It was a bit windy, I had drank too much coffee before going to the range and I hadn't had lunch, so this probably had something to do with the results.

ArchAngelCD,

Would be interested in hearing the load your friend uses for the Swiss 7.5.

 

[Walkalong]

When working up a load in a rifle, you will find a "sweet spot" in more than one place as the velocity goes up.

It is best, safety wise, to pick a sweet spot which is at or under max data. Naturally an experienced handloader can safely go over max data in some rifles in some applications, but for most of us we need to stick with published data. IMHO anyway.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

When working up a load in a rifle, you will find a "sweet spot" in more than one place as the velocity goes up.

It is best, safety wise, to pick a sweet spot which is at or under max data. Naturally an experienced handloader can safely go over max data in some rifles in some applications, but for most of us we need to stick with published data. IMHO anyway.

Couldn't agree more. In close to 20 years of reloading this it the first time I have felt the desire or the need to exceed a published maximum load. This decision was made after I had started at a minimum load and worked my way up to the max and noticed no signs of excessive pressure. Now that I have shot some of these cases 3 times, I find the primer pockets are still tight, there have been zero neck splits, there have been no ejector pin marks on the case heads, the primers are still rounded and not flattened and the brass ejects without any effort. Based on the QuickLoad program being correct (and based on felt recoil I believe it is) then this particular load in my rifle really isn't what I would consider to be a max load for the .223. As I mentioned before, this is old powder and I don't recommend anyone using the current Alliant 2400 powder for .223 loads. Once I finish this powder off I have no plans on continuing the use of 2400 for my .223's (except for maybe in an emergency) as I feel there are too many better powders available.

 

[788Ham]

IMR 4198 is a good powder for the .223, might give it a try. I've used it for several years now, works good!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

ArchAngelCD,

Would be interested in hearing the load your friend uses for the Swiss 7.5.

I'm a bit forgetful lately but if I can remember to ask him I will without a doubt post his load data. Remind me if I don't get back to you within a few days, I think I'll see him next on Monday.

 

[kingmt]

I wouldn't use felt recoil as a indication. I wouldn't even consider it as a sign. As the pressure climbs quicker you will have less recoil.

 

[RevGeo]

Every reloader should read Jack O'Connor's treatise on pressure in the Speer Rolading Manual #10.

 

[Clark]

Walkalong
Moderator

When working up a load in a rifle, you will find a "sweet spot" in more than one place as the velocity goes up.

It is best, safety wise, to pick a sweet spot which is at or under max data. Naturally an experienced handloader can safely go over max data in some rifles in some applications, but for most of us we need to stick with published data. IMHO anyway.

I like to think that advanced reloaders make up their own data, as they know which guns are much stronger than the brass.
At least the wild cat designers have to make up their own data.

But I recently worked with the designer of a popular wildcat, and he was unaware of the relative case head strength limitations of his wildcats.

In his later years, Gene Stoner worked developing one my father's gun designs. Stoner died before I started handloading, and I never got a chance to ask him why the 223 is registered so wimpy.