Excessive wear/erosion in LBC 1911 frame?

[SRMohawk]

In 2001, I ordered an LBC Premier II 6" (Longslide) in .45 ACP with a carbon steel slide but a stainless frame. Since then I've put thousands and thousands of rounds through it and it's held up really well, remaining very tight and scarely worse for the wear. At least, up until now. Last night I disassembled it to do some much needed routine maintenance/cleaning and found that the forward end of the frame's rails, on both sides, as well as the area just forward of the feed ramp (where the underside of the barrel's chamber section articulates with the frame) were marred and pitted vastly beyond what I had noticed the last time I disassembled the piece to clean it up and re-lube it. Now, not only was the frame not like this the last time I disassembled it, but there was absolutely no new discernible wear/erosion in any area of the slide.

Mind you all, I've probably spent almost a thousand rounds with this gun since last cleaning it, which is unusual (ususally clean and re-lube it every 500 rounds). I've been shooting a steady diet of pretty warm ammo through it as well (Zero 230-gr FMJ or JHP projectiles @ just over 900 fps). Also, the last time I changed out the mainspring, I used a Wolff #2 (trimmed to exactly the same length as the Wolff #3 springs I order pre-trimmed direct from LBC). But the gun was less managable with the #3 springs used and recommended by Les Baer for his 6" guns in .45 ACP given the warmer loads, so I decided to go with a spring from the same manufacturer that was one step up in terms of tension. Strangely, Wolff does not rate mainsprings for longslide configured 1911s in terms of lbs. Rather, they rate them on a scale of 1-5 (the lower the number, the greater the tension of the spring).

What do you guys think is the main contributor of this new and seemingly accelerated wear/erosion in the frame of this gun?

 

[Archangel]

I'm no expert, but it sounds to me like you might be getting coil bind.

Do a search on "coil bind." I'm sure that Tuner has on at least one occasion described how to check for it.



Edited to add:
Or I could not be lazy and actually give you the link.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=82587

 

[SRMohawk]

AA,
Wow! Now here's something I've never even heard of. I'm gonna check it out. Hopefully, you have something here. Won't be surprised if you're right, either, seein' as how there are more than a few authorities out there who argue that using mainsprings heavier than is absolutely necessary to protect the gun can actually promote excessive wear/damage. In fact, one of the ladies who work the phones for LBC once told me that the recoil buffs more than make up for where the mainspring gives up. "Take the slightly heavier recoil when training with warm or hot ammo", she said, "Your gun will be better off for it". Of course, others have told me this is nonsense and that moving up in terms of mainspring tension to accomodate greater recoil energy is completely appropriate as long as the increases are commensurate with one other.

 

[SRMohawk]

Dang! It ain't coil bind, AA. Just went and looked this up as you directed. And the reason I'm certain is because I've ordered alot of replacement mainsprings for this gun direct from LBC, and they all come pre-cut for the specific model and caliber for which you order them. When I went with a slightly heavier spring, I used the same manufuacturer (Wolff) from which LBC purchases all its springs and then cut it to exactly the same length as the original.

 

[BBBBill]

... When I went with a slightly heavier spring, I used the same manufuacturer (Wolff) from which LBC purchases all its springs and then cut it to exactly the same length as the original...

I'm not sure how pitting relates to coil bind, but your reasoning for no coil bind is suspect. If the "slightly heavier spring" is of larger diameter wire, then the stack length will be longer regardless of the relaxed length of the spring. That may not be a problem on a full size gun, but it can get sticky in a hurry on a compact where spring space is at a premium. Diameter of wire x number of coils = stack length. Any less available spring space than that will result in coil bind. If I misunderstood you, I apologise, but that appears to be what you were alluding to.

 

[SRMohawk]

Now that's the thing I really don't understand, Bill. You see, I've got a good handful of #1, #2, and #3 Wolff mainsprings for longslide configured 1911s and I've measured the difference in thickness with a caliper. THEY'RE ALL 0.47"!!! I WAS SOBER WHEN I MEASURED FOR THE DIFFERENCE, TOO!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

BTW, Brenda (one of the customer relations ladies for LBC) replied to an e-mail I sent up there several days ago just this afternoon and she conferred with Les about my problem. She said he just shrugged and said I needed to turn the control screw on my press' charge bar back a bit and quit beating up his guns. Les is good man. I like him. But I refuse to train with attenuated ammo. So if this is the problem, I guess I'd better prepare myself to replace my LBCs when they break.

 

[Old Fuff]

The stainless steel usually used in firearms is slightly softer then high carbon, and I would expect more wear on the stainless part This would be especially true if you were running the pistol dry & dirty. If you want a tight gun to stay that way, keep it clean and lubricated.

Generally speaking, I think it's a mistake to run extra hot loads through a long slide because of the slide's additional mass and weight. Long slide 1911 pistols were developed by bullseye shooters, and intended to be used with light, mid-range loads. Many shooters try to compensate for higher slide velocity by using ever heavier recoil springs - forgetting that the spring may buffer the rearward travel a bit, but then drives the slide into battery with battering force. Coil bind on a long slide would be unusual because of the longer recoil spring tunnel, but such is not impossible.

She said he (Les) just shrugged and said I needed to turn the control screw on my press' charge bar back a bit and quit beating up his guns. Les is good man. I like him.

He also knows a lot more about what works and doesn't in the guns he builds - then some of his customers.

 

[SRMohawk]

Roger that, O.F. What you say about the deficiencies of stainless steel vs. carbon steel as well as the greater bearing surface between slide and frame in longslide 1911s makes alot of sense. It's probably why the slide in this Premier II 6" doesn't show any where near as much wear as the frame. Additionally, it's probably why my Super-Tac is holding up much better (it gets a steady diet of the same ammo but is built on a standard 5" slide).

No more stainless-framed 1911s for me. I'm still not gonna turn back the control screw on my charge bar though. If the frame cracks, the frame cracks. And in that event I'll just sell what remains and buy another gun. I just never could feel okay about training with attenuated loads.

 

[1911Tuner]

If the frame cracks...

The frame isn't the concern. It's the slide. Whenever the gun fires, the bullet pushing the barrel forward and the equal/opposite side of the equation slamming the slide backward imposes a sudden, heavy tensile stress in the area between the first lug wall and the breechface. Both these areas have fairly sharp corners...and the steel is thin. The most likely place for a crack is in the top, left rear of the port adjacent to the breechface.

The heavier slide and barrel are aggravating factors. Probably better to stick to the pressure/velocity/recoil impulse levels recommended.

 

[Jim Watson]

Aren't you talking about recoil springs, not mainsprings?

Any road, the mainspring does play a part. It sounds like this is an ideal application for the Tuner Special Square Firing Pin Stop.

I would also be looking at a recoil buffer or one of the patent concentric spring "recoil reducers" to preserve my gun.

And just what is it you are training for with a longslide and +P ammunition, anyway?