Expander ball problem

[Fatelvis]

I just bought a Redding "Type S" FL sizer in 30-06, and noticed, with the appropriate bushings, it sizes the neck down, but there is no resistance when the neck goes over the expander. I removed the expander and mic'ed it, and it measure .283". Wouldn't that be for a 7mm die? Thanks-

 

[rcmodel]

Well, it's not for a .308", that's for sure.

I'd give Redding a call tomorrow and get the right one on the way.

rc

 

[Fatelvis]

Can anyone who has a Redding .30 caliber sizing die measure thiers, and chime in? I'm just curious as to what it is supposed to be. Thanks-

 

[JimKirk]

The problem that I see is that The type S die use a bushing to size the neck from the out side of the case rather than expand it using a button as in a normal sizing die. You have to change the bushing to change the sizing. So the stem or button would have to be smaller than the caliber to work.

Jimmy K


Read this it explains:

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/typesbushseatdie.html

 

[JimKirk]

You did order a bushing to go with the die? They do not come with one as far as I know.

You order the bushing size to match the thickness of your brass or you have to make all your brass the same thickness.

Jimmy K

 

[243winxb]

look again, the S die comes with an expander button and another thing that is just a decapper. Both fit on the same stem. The expander should measure around .306" more or less a few .0005"

 

[JimKirk]

Yes, I left out that it does come with both an expander and a pin holder.
My mistake.

Jimmy K

 

[Fatelvis]

You did order a bushing to go with the die? They do not come with one as far as I know.

Yes, I ordered and used a .331" bushing (loaded rounds measured .333-.3335" OD on the necks). I want at least .002" neck tension, because they're for a Garand. What is strange is the neck measures .3295" after sizing, and before bullet seating. How is this possible, to have a smaller size than the bushing?? I am aware the die comes with a pin holder also, but I used the expander. I have other "S Type" dies, and am used to the expander just barely touching the inside of the neck, enough to true up the neck, and ironing out any dings or dents. This die leaves dented mouths, without truing them. I think they messed up and put the wrong sized expander in it before shipping.

 

[243winxb]

Wrong expander for sure then. The .3293" after sizing may be because your sizing the case down a lot. Reddings tech line info tells you about that.

It has come to our attention through customer calls and our own use of the bushing style sizing dies that in certain instances, a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range and the brass is on the thin side. Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010".

Solutions include, increasing bushing diameter to compensate and/or the use of a size button. Reducing the neck diameter in two smaller steps by using an intermediate diameter bushing will also help. More concentric necks will also result using this method, as the case necks are stressed less during sizing. Don't forget to properly chamfer the inside and outside of the case mouths and apply a light coating of lubricant to the case necks before sizing.

 

[Fatelvis]

Well I'll be a Monkey's uncle! Just for the heck of it, I went and remeasured the sized necks, and they measured .3285"! The fired brass measures .340". So I guess I am sizing them down quite a bit! (.009"). So, according to Redding, I should probably buy a .333" or .334" bushing to compensate for the "heavy sizing syndrom", and give me the targeted neck tension. Hopefully this will result in minimal sizing and ultimately little runout. I learned something new today....Thanks!

 

[Ol` Joe]

The "S" die relies on using the proper bushing to get the ID of the case mouth to the desired dimension and doesn`t rely on the expander for this. That is the reasoning behind the various sized buttons offered. You pick the one to match the brass thickness.

The ball is problably undersized because of this.

 

[Fatelvis]

They offer various sized buttons?

 

[USSR]

Fatelvis,

What brand of brass are you using?

Don

 

[Fatelvis]

The brass from the Greek ball ammo that the CMP sells. All of mine is from '73.

 

[JimKirk]

Ok, I went out to my reloading shack this evening as it has been a while(6 yrs+) since I had used my type S dies(I only have the one set). Upon opening the box there was no expander with my set. I did buy those dies from a guy that said he could not get them to work, so he may not have put the expander back in. I have two RCBS sets and two Redding sets for the same caliber, I found that the return for the effort I was having to put into the brass, was not worth it to me so I had stopped using the type s dies. None of my guns are benchrest guns.

Jimmy K

 

[woods]

Well I'll be a Monkey's uncle! Just for the heck of it, I went and remeasured the sized necks, and they measured .3985"! The fired brass measures .340". So I guess I am sizing them down quite a bit! (.009"). So, according to Redding, I should probably buy a .333" or .334" bushing to compensate for the "heavy sizing syndrom", and give me the targeted neck tension. Hopefully this will result in minimal sizing and ultimately little runout. I learned something new today....Thanks!

Well that must be a mistake with the .3985". You must have meant .3385". If you did then the math still has a problem.

A measurement of .3385" on the outside means that in order to have a .002" bullet grip then the brass would have to have a thickness of .01425"

.3385"-.308"-.002"=.0285"/2=.01425"

If your brass is not at least that thick then you will not have enough bullet grip.

But IMO the bushing dies should not be used with the expander ball anyway. Think about it, you are paying dearly for a bushing die and buying a bushing that sizes the outside of the case neck to a specific dimension and then re-expanding it with an expander ball. Why? Might as well buy a much cheaper FL die if you are going to resize the ID of the neck with an expander.

The bushing dies work best when you do not use the expander and buy the proper bushing to give you the bullet grip you want. You determine that by measuring the outside of a loaded case neck and subtracting the bullet grip you want. For example if you have a neck OD on a loaded round of .336" and you want .002" bullet grip, just buy a .334" bushing and size without the expander. Simple.

But the bushings without the expander will size any variances in neck thickness to the ID of the neck where they might have an effect on your runout and bullet grip so IMO the bushing dies work best when you outside neck turn the necks to a consistant neck thickness. Then choose the bushings to determine your bullet grip with the neck thickness you turn to.

 

[JimKirk]

But IMO the bushing dies should not be used with the expander ball anyway. Think about it, you are paying dearly for a bushing die and buying a bushing that sizes the outside of the case neck to a specific dimension and then re-expanding it with an expander ball. Why? Might as well buy a much cheaper FL die if you are going to resize the ID of the neck with an expander.

The bushing dies work best when you do not use the expander and buy the proper bushing to give you the bullet grip you want. You determine that by measuring the outside of a loaded case neck and subtracting the bullet grip you want. For example if you have a neck OD on a loaded round of .336" and you want .002" bullet grip, just buy a .334" bushing and size without the expander. Simple.

But the bushings without the expander will size any variances in neck thickness to the ID of the neck where they might have an effect on your runout and bullet grip so IMO the bushing dies work best when you outside neck turn the necks to a consistant neck thickness. Then choose the bushings to determine your bullet grip with the neck thickness you turn to.

Woods said what I was trying to get at in post #4 & 5, it just didn't come out like I wanted.

Jimmy K

 

[Fatelvis]

Well that must be a mistake with the .3985". You must have meant .3385".

Thank you for pointing that out Woods, and you are correct, that was wrong. The sized necks actually measured .3285". I never wrote it down, and couldn't remember the correct measurements during the short walk from the basement to the upstairs! What a memory. I edited my orginal post to avoid confusion.

IMO the bushing dies work best when you outside neck turn the necks to a consistant neck thickness. Then choose the bushings to determine your bullet grip with the neck thickness you turn to.

Woods, I completely understand your explanation, and agree, however.... I use the dies a bit differently. I choose the bushing that will give the proper neck tension, and the expander, which in the past was the correct diameter, to iron out any dings, and to adjust for any neck thickness variances. Now in the past, (4 other calibers), I didn't experience this "heavy sizing syndrome", and the expander just barely touched the inside of the necks. Turning the necks is definately a sure way to improve the consistancy of neck tension, but I'm not ready to go that extra step, for "Garand accuracy". (Call it laziness). The combo of a wrong sized expander, and a loose necked rifle chamber, is really messing things up!
As a whole, I'm really a fan of the "S" series dies, I like the control it gives you, to overcome variables. If I was using a standard FL die right now, I would be stuck sizing the neck down heavily, and then dragging an expander ball through it, sizing it heavily back. That can't be good for the brass. At least with the "S" die, you can limit the amount of neck constriciton, avoiding heavy expander sizing, or omit the expander all together, like Woods suggested. Oh, how I love versatility!

 

[USSR]

I choose the bushing that will give the proper neck tension, and the expander, which in the past was the correct diameter, to iron out any dings...

Forget about the expander ball. Use a tapered cylindrical rod to round out any dented necks (I use a kitchen knife sharpening rod, but a prick punch or similar such tool will work well also). Using an expander ball with bushing dies negates all the advantages of bushings.

Don

 

[243winxb]

I should probably buy a .333" or .334" bushing to compensate for the "heavy sizing syndrom"

Your using a .331" bushing now. So a .332" or .333" might work. Trial and error. I ended up buying 3 bushings, one was way to large, Redding was nice and exchanged it for me. But i do neck turn for one rifle, and not the other. The unturned necks get the expander. Very light drag. Works well.

 

[woods]

Well, I do agree that it is better to size the neck as little as possible and then expand it as little as possible than to size a lot with a FL die. But if you do not use an expander then you are cutting the working of the neck brass in half, not a big deal, but there nonetheless.

I have a set of pin gauges which have become invaluable to me when prepping cases. One thing I have learned is that when you size the necks with a bushing die without turning then the ID of the neck varies quite a bit, as much as .003" which would make sense. If you use the bushing dies after outside neck turning then it is almost impossible to get a 100% consistant ID because the neck turning process is hard to get 100% consistant. The neck ID might vary by .001". But if you use a Lee Collet then you get 100% consistant ID of the neck which means you have a 100% consistant bullet grip.

I don't use expanders but would think that the ID of the necks would also be very consistant, just coated with lube and have had the necks jerked around by the expander.

 

[b78-22250]

Mr Woods I do not agree with your statement about the lee collet die. 100% consistant Id =100% consistant bullet grip. Prep 20 rounds of brass to your specs, use your collet dies and a strain guage and you will find this statement is false period.

 

[woods]

I guess I should have added that I also thoroughly clean the inside of the necks with steel wool


and then scotchbrite



for a completely smooth, scratch and burr free ID. Then I coat with mica



I keep all cases grouped according to number of times they have been fired or annealed. After checking the bullets for bearing length, the seating depths and bullet grips are 100% consistant.

So, I apologize. I should have said that the Lee Collet is the only sizing method that I have found that will give you 100% consistant bullet grip if you take away all the other variables.

 

[Fatelvis]

I called Redding and spoke with a Tech, and he said the expander ball I have is not for .30 cal, and he will send the correct one to me right away, no charge. Great customer service, as usual. He also agreed that a .333" bushing will probably do the trick, giving me proper neck tension.