Fellas is their a softness of lead I can cast in a wadcutter or flatpoint (non hollowpoint) that will get decent expansion at 900-1000fps? I havent casted before, but looking to get into it. First project is the above purpose. I assume pure lead probably will? But how fast can that be pushed? I'll be matching the bullet size to the bore of the gun +.001" or so, covering my bases there.
expanding cast bullets in 38+P
- Thread starter trekker73
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Lafitte
Member
I just don't consider lead bullets and +P to be a good combination, what are you really wanting to do? What are you shooting with the bullets, what are you shooting them in?
Lafitte
Lafitte
Typically you want the bhn of the alloy to be no more than the velocity of the load divided by 100. This is nothing more than a place to start.
When casting pure lead or close to pure lead fill out can become an issue. You want sharp/crisp edges on the grease grooves and the bullets base. The other thing you need to keep an eye on is pure lead will cast a smaller in diameter bullet compared to an alloy with tin/antimony in it.
There's a bunch of ways to get where you're going. I do most of my casting with nothing more than range scrap making 100#+ batches of ingots/finished alloy at 1 time doing the large batches aids in keeping the alloy consistent batch after batch. Since I started testing the alloy (1990??) it's always been 8/9bhn. I feel that I'm extremely lucky to have such large quantities of this alloy to use. It makes excellent blammo ammo bullets, hp bullets that perform in the 800fps to 1200fps range depending on what hp pin/shape/size I use.
That 8/9bhn range scrap used to cast 148gr hbwc's shot out of a 6" bbl'd ppc revolver with a 800fps+ load.
Was playing around on the bowling pin table, you want to hit the bowling pins in the label. Doing so drives them strait back, the recovered bullet.
Another hbwc cast from that same 8/9bhn, a 220gr 44cal hbwc shot into wetpack in a snubnosed revolver doing +/-1000fps.
Another 44cal/1000fps bullet using the same alloy, a 210gr hollow point hollow based swc
A side view of the same bullet, note how short the bullets body is. Not only did the hp expand the bullet's base expanded.
Tin is your friend when it comes to making soft nosed bullets along with aiding in bullet fill out when casting and increasing the bullets diameter. The alloy I use (8/9bhn range scrap) does pretty good with low velocity hp's and solid nosed bullets up to 1700fps+. Then I have to start babying the loads due to the alloy blowing out/can't take the pressures and rotational torques of the hotter loads.
It was a little bit of a struggle for me when looking/testing alloys for 30cal hunting bullets that would work in the 2000fps+ range. I'd make up a pot of an alloy and then cast 3/4 different bullet designs and then load them up using 2/3 different powders. Head to the range and shoot them over a chronograph in targets @ 100yds. Then I'd go down range and dig them out of the berm. This is what they looked like.
As you can see there are a lot of broken off/shattered noses, not good/too brittle of an alloy. I ended up with the alloy used for that 2300fps bullet, the load was a 50,000psi+ load for that bullet.
Don't know if you powder coat or not but pc'ing bullets opens a lot of doors that traditionally cast/lubed bullets couldn't go thru. You could cast pure lead bullets and simply pc them. The pc will not only make them a larger diameter (typically 2/1000th's) a push thru sizer will true up the bullets base and drive bands. The tip of the bullet did break off, the bullets bend was hit by another bullet making the crater.
That hunting bullet alloy is:
#15 pure lead
#3 foundry type
#1 50/50 soldier
6% tin 3.75% antinomy 91% pure lead 14bhn
For a general hv (2600fps+) rifle bullet alloy I use:
#12 pure lead
#3 mono type
#1 50/50 soldier
5.25% tin 4.75% antimony 90% pure lead 14bhn
Anyway, there's a place to start.
When casting pure lead or close to pure lead fill out can become an issue. You want sharp/crisp edges on the grease grooves and the bullets base. The other thing you need to keep an eye on is pure lead will cast a smaller in diameter bullet compared to an alloy with tin/antimony in it.
There's a bunch of ways to get where you're going. I do most of my casting with nothing more than range scrap making 100#+ batches of ingots/finished alloy at 1 time doing the large batches aids in keeping the alloy consistent batch after batch. Since I started testing the alloy (1990??) it's always been 8/9bhn. I feel that I'm extremely lucky to have such large quantities of this alloy to use. It makes excellent blammo ammo bullets, hp bullets that perform in the 800fps to 1200fps range depending on what hp pin/shape/size I use.
That 8/9bhn range scrap used to cast 148gr hbwc's shot out of a 6" bbl'd ppc revolver with a 800fps+ load.
Was playing around on the bowling pin table, you want to hit the bowling pins in the label. Doing so drives them strait back, the recovered bullet.
Another hbwc cast from that same 8/9bhn, a 220gr 44cal hbwc shot into wetpack in a snubnosed revolver doing +/-1000fps.
Another 44cal/1000fps bullet using the same alloy, a 210gr hollow point hollow based swc
A side view of the same bullet, note how short the bullets body is. Not only did the hp expand the bullet's base expanded.
Tin is your friend when it comes to making soft nosed bullets along with aiding in bullet fill out when casting and increasing the bullets diameter. The alloy I use (8/9bhn range scrap) does pretty good with low velocity hp's and solid nosed bullets up to 1700fps+. Then I have to start babying the loads due to the alloy blowing out/can't take the pressures and rotational torques of the hotter loads.
It was a little bit of a struggle for me when looking/testing alloys for 30cal hunting bullets that would work in the 2000fps+ range. I'd make up a pot of an alloy and then cast 3/4 different bullet designs and then load them up using 2/3 different powders. Head to the range and shoot them over a chronograph in targets @ 100yds. Then I'd go down range and dig them out of the berm. This is what they looked like.
As you can see there are a lot of broken off/shattered noses, not good/too brittle of an alloy. I ended up with the alloy used for that 2300fps bullet, the load was a 50,000psi+ load for that bullet.
Don't know if you powder coat or not but pc'ing bullets opens a lot of doors that traditionally cast/lubed bullets couldn't go thru. You could cast pure lead bullets and simply pc them. The pc will not only make them a larger diameter (typically 2/1000th's) a push thru sizer will true up the bullets base and drive bands. The tip of the bullet did break off, the bullets bend was hit by another bullet making the crater.
That hunting bullet alloy is:
#15 pure lead
#3 foundry type
#1 50/50 soldier
6% tin 3.75% antinomy 91% pure lead 14bhn
For a general hv (2600fps+) rifle bullet alloy I use:
#12 pure lead
#3 mono type
#1 50/50 soldier
5.25% tin 4.75% antimony 90% pure lead 14bhn
Anyway, there's a place to start.
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Your post is one of the best I’ve read on THR. Thanks for posting!
You get over 1,000 fps with "pure" lead and you will be leading up your gun like you won't believe. 800 fps is excellent and roof lead does a great job of expanding. Fill a paper copier box with wet newspaper or magazines with some 3/4 pine boards in the back and shoot a couple of rounds into it at 20 ft. Carefully look as the holes produced as you go deeper into the box. Maybe dig out the bullets from the pine at the end. I think you will be surprised at the expansion.
.38 Special
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No guarantees, but in the OP's shoes I would try 1-40 tin-lead with a gascheck. It may expand a little in flesh, but not much I wouldn't think. The little bit of tin will really help fill out the mold, and the gascheck goes a long way toward reducing or eliminating leading.
243winxb
Member
Alloys of lead and tin may expand best? Antimony not needed, I would guess?
Ran an "Existence Theorem"* test
Pure Lead at 38 Special+P Pressures/Velocities
- 38 Special Starline Case
- FedSmPstl Primers
- Power Pistol Powder / 6.0gr (Max)
- SAECO #398-158 (166gr using Pure Lead) Sized 0.358" upon loading
- OAL - 1.455"
LABRADAR for Chronograph
Revolver was a 4" S&W_19-4 (Cylinders pin out at 0.3575")
Thin-filmed ALOX (toughest test for revolver gap jump)
5 rounds
Rifle was 20" Marlin 1894 in 38 Special
Powder-Coated: Eastwood Ford Light Blue (my Std color-code for pure lead)
REVOLVER @ 25yds (5 rounds) Actual Velocity 943 fps
Barrel wiped 1x dry patch afterward --> Mirror Finish/Forcing cone clean
RIFLE @ 75 yds (5 rounds) Actual Velocity 1,245 fps (very tight spread)
Barrel wiped 1x dry patch afterward --> Mirror Finish Breech to Muzzle
* i.e., not exhaustive. Just enough to say it's reasonably feasible w/o immediate nasty surprises
Pure Lead at 38 Special+P Pressures/Velocities
- 38 Special Starline Case
- FedSmPstl Primers
- Power Pistol Powder / 6.0gr (Max)
- SAECO #398-158 (166gr using Pure Lead) Sized 0.358" upon loading
- OAL - 1.455"
LABRADAR for Chronograph
Revolver was a 4" S&W_19-4 (Cylinders pin out at 0.3575")
Thin-filmed ALOX (toughest test for revolver gap jump)
5 rounds
Rifle was 20" Marlin 1894 in 38 Special
Powder-Coated: Eastwood Ford Light Blue (my Std color-code for pure lead)
REVOLVER @ 25yds (5 rounds) Actual Velocity 943 fps
Barrel wiped 1x dry patch afterward --> Mirror Finish/Forcing cone clean
RIFLE @ 75 yds (5 rounds) Actual Velocity 1,245 fps (very tight spread)
Barrel wiped 1x dry patch afterward --> Mirror Finish Breech to Muzzle
* i.e., not exhaustive. Just enough to say it's reasonably feasible w/o immediate nasty surprises
Last edited:
Powder coat
lee liquid lube
45/45/10 (45% lee liquid lube 45% johnson's paste wax 10% mineral spirits)
Heck simply giving the soft bullets a good coat of johnson's paste wax and let it dry will work.
I can't even begin to count how many 1000's of bullet's I've coated using those 3 methods listed above. I even do a pc coating on rifle bullets and then put a coat of 45/45/10 on them. Using both pc and the 45/45/10 together does 2 things. Some pc's can't handle 2800fps+ in rifles, the coating starts to leave black scorch marks in the bbl's. The 45/45/10 stops this along with seasoning the bbl with wax I can switch back and forth between traditionally coated bullets and pc'd bullets.
I've swaged my own bullets for decades (started in 1990) & swaged lead bullets are pure lead or close to it. The lead/alloy has to be soft or bad things happen to the swaging dies. Every time I did a "test" run of a bullet I used pure lead & lubed them with johnson's paste wax.
lee liquid lube
45/45/10 (45% lee liquid lube 45% johnson's paste wax 10% mineral spirits)
Heck simply giving the soft bullets a good coat of johnson's paste wax and let it dry will work.
I can't even begin to count how many 1000's of bullet's I've coated using those 3 methods listed above. I even do a pc coating on rifle bullets and then put a coat of 45/45/10 on them. Using both pc and the 45/45/10 together does 2 things. Some pc's can't handle 2800fps+ in rifles, the coating starts to leave black scorch marks in the bbl's. The 45/45/10 stops this along with seasoning the bbl with wax I can switch back and forth between traditionally coated bullets and pc'd bullets.
I've swaged my own bullets for decades (started in 1990) & swaged lead bullets are pure lead or close to it. The lead/alloy has to be soft or bad things happen to the swaging dies. Every time I did a "test" run of a bullet I used pure lead & lubed them with johnson's paste wax.
Hooda Thunkit
Member
So, very close to Lyman #2 alloy.
Lyman #2 is listed as 5% Sn, 5% Sb, 90% Pb
or: 5% tin, 5% antimony, 90% pure lead.
Lyman #2 has been used for decades. Look at the loading manuals; most of the lead bullet loads are specified with Lyman #2 alloy.
As @forrest r has shown, there is a reason that particular alloy is specified.
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