Expedition Rifle, ...ok just humor me.

[schromf]

My first aquistition would be a mule!!!!!!! Or better yet two or three. Easy to feed, easy on water, hardy not likely to die in the first week, and will pack what four or five men will carry. After I got transportation straightened out I would figure out how much of the total cargo capacity I have to work with, ie: 50 lbs, 150lbs?

At least one shotgun in the party would be essential, pump rock solid operation, maybe a Ithica 37, not sawed off, it will be needed for snakes and the camp meat, thinking about that: two shotguns.

Rifle, bolt actions with stripper clips would be my first choice, any auto would require some real sole searching on my part. For two reasons, the amount of ammo I am going to pack is going to minimal about 1 months worth. Enough that if there is an incident there would be plenty, to spare, maybe even several days worth, but an ammo pack train isn't going to happen. What will get packed on the mules will be several reloading tool sets (the old Lyman/Lee types) several thousand bullets, kegs of powder, primers, and bullet grease to make the reloading possible. Reloading as needed will be neccessary, and since this is field reloading, I want bolt guns that aren't going to be picky on feeding.

Rifles could be several types, old mausers, Enfields, Springfields something simple, reliable, and rugged Prefereably modern versions of the these type rifles. A couple .22 rifles with ammo would be in the mix, with several cases of ammo to back them up. They would not be Ruger 10/22's. A simple combo shotgun/rifle would be my first choice, kills two birds with one stone. And saves wieght. Other item will be in the selection of firearms packed around is everyone won't be carry one. So there will no match up of a firearm to every person. Of your list of 10 persons, the total firearms might be 15-20 total, but some are spares, in case of loss breakage.

My next big issue is how to keep the shotguns feed in a reloading scenario. I am not a big shotgun nut, but I know this could be done, I would ned to figure it out or find somebody thats knows what to do.

MY initial list would look like ( revised several times for sure, with positive input from party leaders )

3 - 22lr/12 (20) guage shotgun/rifles
3 - shotguns
2 - Flare guns
6 - 308 equivalant rifles
4- smaller caliber (.223/6mm) rifles
2-3 Something bigger say 375 H&H, 9.3x62, 338 mags
?? - this might still be a couple of semi auto (full) rifles, they would need to fit logistically into the above list maybe a 308, or a couple of 6mm or 6.5 mm rifles from the above list, if they went gernade launchers would be an attachment I think. While I was ordering a 1/2 dozen claymore mines would get added to the list ( there could be a couple other destructive devices added here like flares, a few sticks of dynamite etc). At least a couple would have scopes, detachable with iron sights as a backup would work well.

When it comes to the powder primer situation, particular attention would be payed to only a couple of types, maybe one for shotgun/pistols and another for the rifles. The bigger stuff off the list there might be a problem there but I would cross matrix this different powder so it worked in the 308 class also.

I know the above list isn't exciting, but it would work with some tweaks. I would also add the handguns to the list, pick one or two cartridges only that is supported, maybe a 38/357 as one choice, possibly 45 ACP as another. If you showed up at the party with anything else you would be SOL.

One last note, I would be paying attention to corrosion issues on all the firearms, lots of cleaning materials, stainless where it was practical. My other consideration would be reasonably low pressure rounds if I thought the climate was tropical or hot in anyway, don't need to have pressure issues with all the ammo, I would also mix up the ammo types so the initail ammo was made to a very tight quality standards, not prone to getting wet, but definaly boxer primed. Oh did I say nobody gets to throw away brass, count on it.

Like I said not fancy, but that would cover most of the needs I would reasonably expect, from camp meat, nasty cats ( smaller than a bear, but leapords or the equivilant are nasty ), snakes, and hostile natives if that became neccesary. And the more I think about it, multiple mules, I don't want it all in one place in case a mule falls down a ravine, or drowns in a river or something, it would get broken up so that one lost mule wouldn't be terminal. And since I got this mixed up in the mess, I would probably just take over the whole logistics problem for the adventure, cause this gets mixed up with radio's, food, clothing, medicine, bedding, shelter, tools, cooking equipment and weight decisions are going to be essential. I'm on record right now telling you either get the transport/logistic side straightened out, or your one year just became two-three weeks, and miserable at that.

 

[Kurt]

So we all must have the same rifle, with no gunsmith help, and in a remote area. History guides my choice, and it will be a Mauser-type bolt rifle. For me there isn’t any close second choice. FORGET THE REMMIES for me!!! A lightweight Remington may be sweet to carry, but the only bolt actions I’ve seen fail personally, have ALL been Remington’s….two extractors and one bolt handle. Hardly the hot setup for what amounts to a survival situation. Absolutely not! With the semi autos, an AK based gun would be reliable, but even the 7.62X39 version couldn’t handle all customary rifle duties. Maybe the Saiga in .308, but then there’s those new shooters to consider. After all, this seems like more of a science type mission than a tactical recon one, so most of the crew’s top skill levels won’t be with weapons. Thanks.

 

[armoredman]

I agree with the Enfield, the Gibbs version, with a weather proof finish, and a whole buncha ammo. The ten round mags give enough on tap, the smooth bolt a quick reload, and the bolt action will cause everyone to slow down to aim, hopefully not wasting finite ammo in spray and pray. The 303 certainly has the knockdown power to take anything including the bear you said was on the island. Local cannibals, er, "peaceful natives", are likely to use poison, bow/arrow, pit traps, obsidian edged weapons, being an island, likely volcanic. Any repeating firearm will outmatch these, as long as the team is awake, aware, and experianced in jungle movement.

 

[schromf]

Mr Murphy,

You aren't gonna supply a squad for a year with nothing but what's on your back. Maybe four months max.

My sentaments exactly, but I think your an optomist on the four months, I wouldn't give it a month, and they would be out of food, need tools they don't have, and need medicine that they weren't able to carry.

Lee F, read some on General Eisenhower, after the war he was on record in listing the most important equiptment to him in the war. Not one was a weapon, #1 was the military version of the DC-3, a bulldozer and one of the transport trucks were in the top five.

While your at it, put some thought into your support side, match up your field explorers with at least one support person, cooks, baggage handlers/laborers, a medic, someone in charge of logistics, a carpenter, possibly a combo armorer/fix it all or better yet a mechanic to work on generators ( are you planning on living in the dark for a year?).

I wintered at the South Pole for a year, six scientic types, supported by 15 support functions, for a total crew of 21 only two bodies could have been removed from the list as they did MET (weather functions) but they had a lot of collateral duties and would have been sorely missed.

I call this: IN NEED OF MULES AND PLANNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

edit: I know this isn't glamorous, but trust me the guy in charge of this stuff would be almost #2 in your organization and your leader would either trust him to have these details worked out, or would be constantly checking on this situation. The party you planned would take six months to plan properly.

 

[pete f]

ok model 99 savage in 250 savage.

light smooth east to carry rifle... 250 will kill black bear and unruly guests you might encounter. An incredibly simply action with all working parts contained inside the action, replace the stock bolt with an allen (hex)head screw and refinish all the stocks inside and out with a linear polyuretane for water protection. Simple to use and simple to fix, I have half a dozen .250's and and as far as I can tell only one has had a part replaced. All are fifty years old or older. Redfield or Lyman peeps and no optics. Might consider a Robar or similar hi tech coating on the steel for corrosion resistance. Other than about a pound of parts, a couple of sears, a couple of trigger leaf springs and two firing pins and springs, only thing else I would consider would be doing the old PO ackley trick of inletting a barrel band in the stock at the same point as the forearmscrew/barrel dovetail. This is the only weak spot I have seen on 99's is the pull of a shoulder strap can pull the little dovetailed hanger out of the barrel. I would carry one of those little Lyman tong reloader deals and several hundred bullets, primer, and powder(probably either Tac or 3031) I would assume that fifteen carry rounds per person would be enough,we are not in a warring situation as yet. Ten rounds each of 100 gr nosler partitions. Five rounds each of something lighter say hornady's 60 gr flat point for the 25-20 loaded to shoot as close as possible to same POI as the 100 gr at 25 yards. These are meat rounds, personal experience has shown these to be just deadly on rabbits, fox, monkey and dik dik. As we are not entering a war zone AR's with a boot full of ammo are not needed. The Smelly(SMLE) some people are recommending would do well to, but is about two pounds heavier and ammo is about two times as heavy. Each party member would carry fifteen empty cases and fifteen loaded cases, a pound of powder, three hundred primers and 100 -100gr bullets and 200 -60 grainers, for a loadout wieght of just over Five pounds for three hundred shots. rotated through the party would two of each of the following reloading tonges, dies, cleaning kits, spares and tools,replacement slings and sights for another 3-4 pounds per member, Added up you get a weapons load for each person of about 15 -16 pounds,all up. Altough discouraged from writing it here, I would add about 2/3 of the group would carry 1911's the last 1/3 would carry something like Cierners quiet ruger MK2 .22 pistol for game getting and none revealing of position.

 

[Waffen]

First off, I would have to use the Donkey idea.

I would have 1 person (strongest) in this squad as "heavy fire support". He would be using a M60 and be carrying 300rds (his standard survival pack load would be carried by other members.)

Second I would have 2 of the 8 people carrying remington 870 Marine shotguns. With 100rds of 12 2 3/4th 04 buck shot. 10 slugs. Both of these people would be point and rear men. Each 870 would have a red dot mounted and mag extenders.

That leaves 5 people left. 4 of wich would be these. I would have them using Lee Enfeild No.4's with 80rds of ammo. Each would be outfitted with a synthetic stock because I would be afraid a wood stock would warp in jungle climate.

Lastly 1 person would be equiped with a ruger 10/77 with 2000 rds of brick ammo. The 10/77 would have a 16in bull barrel and leupold M8 fixed power scope. This person would be incharge of garthering food and covert sniping from very short distances.

For a side arm each person would be equiped with a Springfield 1911 Mil-Spec. Each person carrying 30rds.

 

[Magnum88C]

Just for entertainment's sake let's say that you have been selected to be a member of a secret expedition to a large unexplored island. . .You will be part of a ten person team going in with little to no outside support due to political sensitivity and will be on the island for at least twelve months traveling to the interior mountains while doing a "resource study". The island. . . has no animals larger than black bears to your knowledge. It is all wilderness with no towns, cultivated crops, or signs of civilization according to your Intel. The population consists of primitive tribal groups that may or may not be peaceful.. . .You are the person on the expedition most accustomed to firearms and the team is depending on you to choose a standard rifle that everyone will carry. (You can have a handgun or shotgun but don't post about it here.) What rifle will you choose?

That's the gist of it as I see it. It was requested to NOT go into other equipment of secondary weapons, so I won't.

Now, Long time in the woods, no modern military force to contend with, no African big game. The need is for a general purpose rifle that is 100% reliable (or as close to it as humanly possible), that WON'T encourage spray-and-pray, and is versatile enough to carry out the duties of a general-purpose rifle.

To me, this says Mil-surp botl action rifle. They are tougher than all but custom made guns. Sporting arms, are NOT what you want on such a mission (for reliability reasons), nor are cobbled-up mil-surps (rechambering, adding a bunch of crap they weren't designed for, etc), for the same reliability purposes.

My Pick would be the SMLE, No4, Mk1/3 or Mk2 (Have the trigger attached to the receiver, rather than the trigger guard). It has a 60 degree bolt throw, has proven itself in arenas from the desert, to the mountains to the jungles, and the action is slicker than grease. All you'd need in the "repair kit" would be an extra magazine (in case something happens to the one on the rifle, not for quick reloads), extra bolt (properly headspaced for the rifle), extractor, minimal tools and a cleaning kit.

 

[ducktapehero]

I would pick a Marlin 1894 lever action in 357. NP3 treated for corrosion. 500 rounds a person. 250 rounds of a light 38 special rounds for small game hunting and 250 rounds of full power 357 for personal protection. Reliable, lightweight and easy to carry. Smith model 65 with 3" barrel as back up gun.

 

[artech]

Hmmmmmmmmm.

ONE rifle that has to work for 12 months with NO resupply and NO parts except what you can carry. I guess that means hardly no cleaning gear also.

OK, how about this? A stainless, composite stocked, FLINTLOCK MUSKET!

Wash it out with hot water, extra flints could be easily picked up on volcanic islands, lead balls can be cast over a campfire, only parts to break are one spring and the hammer screw. Put 'em in yer pocket. Could probably even make your own black powder if you were hard up enough. Only downside is a SEVERE lack of firepower....Hate to be getting charged en masse while trying to stand my ground firing four rounds a minute...

Well, probably the p-90 then. Light weight, ammo compatability with sidearms, VERY light ammo, large capacity, and, while you don't mention requiring it, suppressor capability. Might come in handy during touchy negotiations. No battery operated crap, though, Trijicons or the like. Don't know much what parts might be necessary to keep 'em going, though, and cleaning would definitely be a problem.

No free lunch, though. Either too much weight or not enough firepower. Take yer pick.

 

[357Texas]

Win 30-30 Lever Action

And about 500 rds ea thats it.

 

[Kaylee]

From the description, you're talking about a relatively low threat level and a group of people that for the most part *aren't* professional soldiers.

Seems to me that's what the FN P90's are made for. Small, light, packs easy, and puts out a lot of lead in a hurry if necessary.

Sure other things like nice bolt lightweight bolt guns for foraging and maybe M4s or FALs or the like for security folks, but as a "standard issue" I'm sticking with P90.

 

[twoblink]

A Mauser in 308,

and either a Henry Repeating .22LR in the backpack, or something like a pump pellet rifle that breaksdown easily.

It's so compact!! Good for gaming..

 

[Luku]

standard rifle

I'd probably choose the SKS as my team's standard issue rifle. I have heard it is powerful enough to take down a deer. So, I would think it would serve my hunting needs fine. And I think it would serve as a good rifle for personal protection.

 

[Spy Who Came in from the Cold]

Steyr Scout Rifles, some Benelli Novas. Compound bows for hunting and fishing.

 

[Red Tornado]

It's hard to find one rifle for everyone, but I'd take M1 Carbines. Light, handy, light ammo, reliable, etc. Since there's no huge monsters...they would work for anything man-sized and smaller.

Unless of course I'm paying, then everybody gets Mosin M-44s.
RT

 

[fistful]

98 Mauser in .30-06 (.308 also ok) with ghost ring sights and synthetic stock

Hey, sounds like my peep-sighted BRNO .30-06.

This is a scout rifle thread in disguise. It involves the usual question: Is there a general-purpose rifle, and what would it be?

Some of us seem to forget that groups of men lived in and explored the wilderness long before there were generators or other modern conveniences. Are we going to live in the dark for twelve months? No more than the majority of people who have lived on the planet. Can modern guns function in the boonies for a whole year? Why not? Probably wouldn't be the first time. But if everyone has the same rifle, fewer replacement parts and tools will be necessary. Same with ammo.

 

[esldude]

I agree with the comment "some folks can't read". And it only asked about rifles. Not all the other stuff. You could go on for quite awhile. The question tried to limit it so it would make some sense. A rifle of the same type for everyone on the expedition. And they aren't firearm savvy, hence the reason you are doing the choosing.

As for not cleaning a rifle for a year, have seen lots of old bolt actions that nobody cleaned for 10 or more years. Some guys just hunt, shoot a box a year. And that is it. Seems something of a crime to not maintain your rifle. But I have seen a number of such gents with a garage wall or den full of large mounted buck heads. Have even witnessed a discussion of 5 guys, one of whom had cleaned his rifle like a gun store clerk told him. And the others said they didn't know if that was good or not. They had been using them for years without problem. A couple thought cleaning it ruined "seasoning" and would ruin accuracy. Why I don't know?

Single shots, levers, and bolts might stand such abuse. I don't think any semi-auto's would. And this was an expedition, not a military invasion, military scouting expedition or any such. An expedition.

Now it did say no wrong answers. So any rifle of any type would be fair. But certainly the originator probably didn't expect answers to the wrong question.

 

[Lee F]

I started the thread as a fact finding tool. I have experience with a few different brands and actions, but nothing compared to the collective knowledge found here. I know what I would choose based on my limited experience but wanted to see what everyone else would choose. After a long winded setup trying to avoid the AK vs AR and 9mm vs 45 debates I thought I posed a simple question. What one rifle for a year on an unexplored island?

I have been suprised by some of the answers.

Lever actions: I did not realize it would be possible to repair them in the field with only hand tools. SASS shooters putting thousands of rounds a year through their's is a good reference, I guess (powder puff). (My experience with two Winchester 94's says you would have to repair them.)

Semi-automatics of any kind. With the exception of the M1 carbine mentioned all military and civilan semi's that I know of are much heavier than a comparable manual action in the same caliber. The parts count is so much higher also. Sure the AK-47 is as reliable as a bolt action ( more so than some) but you could have the 7.62x39 in a much lighter package.

Non-military actions. I love my Remington 700's for hunting and range time, but doubt I could repair them in the field. The extractor, ejector assembly, and firing pin are a pain even in the shop. Yes I have had a 700 in 30-06 to have a failed extractor, you will too if you shoot enough. 20 rounds a year don't worry about it.

I thought the 303 Enfield and 98 Mausers would dominate more than they have.

My choice would be a stainless steel (coated in OD green or black) rifle with a strict Mauser action. It would, of course, be reloaded with stripper clips and have peep sights. The cartridge would be 223. I realize the limitations of the round but also know how much it weighs. 1,000 rounds of 55 grain weighs 25 lbs. 1,000 rounds of 7.62x39 weighs 37 lbs. Just the quickest of math shows that to be 1480 rounds verses 1000 at 37 lbs. How much does a thousand rounds of 303, 308, 30-06, or 8mm weigh? Are you willing to carry that much extra weight?

 

[Kurt]

Lee F.

I've enjoyed your expedition rifle thread and have followed its progress. I agree with your choice of actions and your reasoning behind it. It's your caliber I'm having a tough time with. The way I see it (and put far too simply) be it pistol or rifle, two light hits usually don't mean as much as one good heavy one. So, no matter what the shooting need at hand, I believe I'd use far less ammo with an effective caliber. And then there's always the possibility of something dangerous around the next corner (tree?).

 

[3rdpig]

Great thread! Trying to reach your objective with a single rifle/caliber is difficult, it's hard to carry a lot of ammo in a caliber sufficient to take big game and I'd hate trying to fend off an angry bear with a 223 bolt action rifle. And taking small game with a .308, .303, 8mm is a waste of ammo and meat.

If I had to take one rifle, and only one rifle, it would probably be the No4 Lee Enfield. Extremely durable with a powerful cartridge and large magazine capacity, it's micrometer rear sight is probably the best iron sights on any bolt action military rifle. Good for any game you'd find and it's effectiveness against primitive natives is well documented. I'd be almost as happy with an 03 Springfield, 98 Mauser, Mosin or Swiss K-31, but the mag capacity and micrometer sights on the Enfield make it the top choice for me.

A 22 conversion kit (probably doesn't exist), or maybe low power sabot/22 loads for small game would be a great addition to the rifle.

Also, a 6" barrel, large caliber revolver and shot loads for small game. I've taken many a grouse and other small game with .44 shot loads. A .45 1911 would also work, but I'd prefer the accuracy, simplicity and power of the 44 revolver. For scientific types, it's more likely they could use it in a pinch and not die while trying to get the safety off or the slide racked. And they'd be less likely to have an accident with it also.

If I could, I'd also have along some 22/410 survival rifles for small game. With this option I could do away with the sabot ammo/22 conversion for the Enfield and have a better small game weapon.

I think my final choices are No 4 Lee Enfield, O/U 22/410 and a 6" .44 revolver.

Large amounts of ammo would not be needed. Enough for hunting and self defense from wild animals, and maybe to fight your way back to the boats if the natives prove unfriendly. If it were me, I'd take gifts for them and do my damndest to see that they were friendly and stayed that way. If they're unfriendly and there's a large population of them scattered throughout the forest, no amount of ammo will get a small party through alive, they'd pick you off one by one from ambush. They could lose hundreds to your one and still take you all out. Instead of more ammo I'd take more gifts for the natives, specially their women, make the women happy and the men won't attack you. You married guys know what I'm talking about!

 

[goon]

I can understand the Mauser action and the stripper clips. That does seem to be a very good choice.
But I agree with Kurt on the caliber. It is true that the .223 is lighter and you can carry more of it. It wouldn't be nearly as destructive on a small animal as a larger round.
It also wouldn't be nearly as destructive on a larger animal.

If you gotta go .223, I would stick with the heaviest bullets possible. God willing, you could find something that didn't expand very quickly. Maybe then it would just punch a hole in a small animal but still hold together well enough to use on something larger if it had to.

I'd still prefer a more powerful round if I thought I was going to have to deal with the unknown.
As much as I love my Mosin Nagant, I think I would have to go with the Lee Enfield .303 British.

 

[Risasi]

Wow...

I'm surprised by many of these answers too. 1000 rounds? Per man? You guys are nuts.

Like Lee said it's an expedition, not an all out assault. As such is expected I would stick with caution and use retreat tactics if hostilities were discovered.

I'll still stick with the AR platform. The advantages of the modular system are far too great. You have to worry about keeping it clean, but what else is there to do around the campfire? Especially when you aren't in an all out war? I know, I know, what about mud, the accident falling down, etc? Well don't do that. Your weapon is an extension of yourself, you should be aware of you and your own at all times.

I wasn't expecting more than an average of 8 mags per person. The whole idea is to give each guy heavy firepower when needed. Hence the semi/three round burst. And I picked 300 Whisper for the very reason that it can be suppressed. And it's a good intermediate round. The two with the Grendels/458's are there when you really need HEAVY firepower. And the two spare uppers as backup. If you got a downed weapon toss the bad upper grab one of the two spares and adapt, go with the flow. Lower problems, come on trigger kits are really light, keep several around.

The suppressed Whisper means game can be taken quietly. Someone suggested a couple bows. I avoided mentioning sidearms and more than one weapon because we were limited to one weapon. As for game everybody knows that if you stop for more than a day or two you should be using trapping not hunting. Why bother hunting when you can pick up a half a dozen rabbits in the morning? Or check the fishing lines in the river? Hunting is too much work when you're hoofing it. Travel, stop for a couple days when you need food/rest. As for hunting with anything other than .22 or a suppressed gun. Nope. It will draw too much attention, and scare any other game away. Bows are a good idea. Of course they aren't mentioned in the original posts. And it takes some serious practice to get good with one. And they can be made in the field anyway. As for sidearms/bows/knives/anything else that has come up, this isn't the military. I'm not going to stop the guy who brings one on his own initiative. More likely than not he'll toss the extra weight the first few hours out.

 

[stevelyn]

One rifle for an expedition, limited/unknown threat, limited support.
Have to go with AR here. Simple to maintain. Pretty easy to repair. Simple manual of arms. Large quantity of ammo not overly burdensome to carry.
Black bears you say? Show me a black bear that can't be stopped with several people dumping a magazine of .223 in him.

 

[Brian Williams]

I posted earlier about the 1894 in Stainless. I want to continue and still think that it is the way to go with a 1894 in 41 mag with the following modifications.
1. Scout scope mount
2. Leupold EER 1x4 scope in QD warne rings
3. Marbles tang sight with a Merit adjustable peep disc
4. Williams FP reciever sight w/ QD mount that will fit in a custom fitted area in the stock like a patch box on an old flintlock also with a merit adjustable peep disc.
5. gold bead front sight
6. Wild west guns take down modification
7. 2 piece cleaning rod fitted into the foreend like a ramrod on a blackpowder gun.
8. Ruger's target gray finish
each member would have a belt pouch for 20 rounds and carry 100 rounds in pack

sprinkled through out the team would be the following reloading supplies
2 full sets Lee handpress with dies, repriming adapter, resizing die

4 molds
2 210 gr SWC LSWCGC
1 round ball
1 wadcutter, not sure what weight

2 Lead melting pots
lead ingots
2 sets of dippers for each load/ bullet type
3 lbs of 2400 and 2 lbs of unigue
3000 primers in metal tins of 100 each sealed in wax

To keep supplied for a year with what you can carry will take a lot of stuff that will be lightweight and sturdy.
I choose a straight walled pistol cartridge because it is easy to reload and it has plenty of thump and can be loaded with 210 gr thumper, wad cutter or a round ball for lots of hunting loads.


I would have every member carry a 22lr handgun and 1 brick of ammo

 

[Flinter]

Drop me anywhere that all I have to do is survive (assuming there's no large bears) and I want a flintlock rifle.......preferably in 40 cal. That gives you about 68 balls to the pound, plus with bullet mold you can dig your bullets out of game or trees and recast them. I can get about 140 shots to each pound of powder. Flints are light, can be resharped, and fairly easy to find in most areas. Cleaning can be accomplished with plain water. With a couple pounds of lead and powder, a couple extra springs and 4 or 5 dozen flints I can live a looooooong time.

However, drop me anywhere that I may have to engage in combat and I want an AK. So that'd be my pick.