Expert Marksman? Where do they get these guys?

[XDKingslayer]

I definately would be lucky to make a head shot at over 200 yards with an open sighted 30-30. Now if it was scoped, maybe.

Scoped or not, that's a hard hit for a lever-action 30-30. You might get the first two or three rounds in, but once the barrel starts to warm you aren't hitting a head target at 200 yards.

Level action 30-30 are notorious for becoming more innaccurate the warmer they get.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

That would be a very difficult shot to make. Not impossible but the shooter would have to be very lucky. I also resent the comment about all cops being "gang like" and conspiring to cover-up their mistakes.

 

[ilbob]

I also resent the comment about all cops being "gang like" and conspiring to cover-up their mistakes.

You may resent it, but it is widely believed, for pretty good reasons. It may not be as widespread as believed, but neither behavior is rare.

 

[Jdude]

I think i could hit a 6 inch (head size) target at 200 yards. Next time I go shooting I'll try.

I don't have a lever action rifle though. Have to use something else.

 

[azredhawk44]

I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 THR lever gun shooters cannot score a single headshot on an IDPA target at 200 yards in 5 shots. Forget 217 yards. Irons just like this guy did in this case.

I didn't do it with my thuddy-thuddy, but I did it at 250 yards with a Mosin Nagant 91/30. The sights on a Win94 or Marlin are worlds better than those of the Mosin Nagant.

I was shooting at a pumpkin @ 250 yards about a month ago, from prone, using elbow for support. I have a couple of witnesses.

I wish I had brought the Win94 also and shot it, but I just had an itch to shoot the Mosin that day. I'm certain I could repeat the same results with my M14, and reasonably confident that with an extra click up on the rear sight to provide some kentucky windage I could drill a pumpkin with the Win94. They aren't as inaccurate as everyone claims.

Anyone want to go to Avery next week (can't this week/weekend) and see it done? We'll put a pie plate up at 200 yards and set a spotting scope to witness the shots. I'll shoot from prone, not from the bench.

And no, I'm not an expert marksman. Frankly, since I've gotten my Mosin and M14, I haven't put more than maybe 20 rounds through my 30-30 in the last 2 years. Could be a good chance to watch an internet blow-hard eat crow.

But we're only talking about 4MOA shooting here.

ETA: In regards to the police shooting, I find it hard to believe that the forensics guys couldn't tell the difference between a 150/170gr 30-30 projectile's damage and a 130-ish grain 9mm JHP at point blank range.

 

[outofbattery]

The bullet would have had to gone 217 yards, through the crack in the window, into the cop's eye, out the back-side of his head...

Back in the early 80's or late 70's there was a mysterious shooting of a car driver on Long Island.Somehow,a girl was shot in the head while driving in her car but with the windows up,it didn't seem possible as to how anyone could have accomplished it.

It turns out that her wing window was open literally a crack.A couple guys were out in the sound shooting a .303.One of the roundes ricocheted off the water,crossed 2 lanes of traffic,enterered through the smallest crack possible and struck her in the head.

While almost impossibly unlikely,some very strange ballistic events happen.


I watched this program and though that the jury made a very poor decision.I actually have a bigger problem with firearms forensics experts with little real life experience than so-called expert marksmen.I would like to know how many shootings the defense witness has actually dealt with wherein the knowns: rounds used,distances,angles and so on were in any way similar.It seemed to be she jumped to conclusions far too early,much like a kid in science class not waiting for the entire experiment to be completed to come to a conclusion-she had her pet idea and tried to find ways to reinforce it rather than look at other possibilities.

As to the reaction of the brother to fire wildly,while improper I have never been shot at by someone with a much more powerful and longer ranged gun whom I could not see not to mention the part about seeing my brother shot in the head.I reckon that could change things and as " they're professional,it's what they're trained to do" arguments go: they're small town cops,not soldiers.

 

[Bwana John]

am sure that there are more than just me here that would be disappointed if they missed such a target more than a couple of times from that range with support.

So....
You are saying you could make a headshot with a opensighted .30-30 @ > 200 yds 90% of the time? With a NM AR or M1A from prone, with a jacket and sling, sure.

Expert Marksman, is there a Master or High Master Marksman?

 

[Grin Reaper]

Expert only means someone with passable knowledge who is willing to make statements and get paid for them. Those of us with proficiency in firearms know better than to claim to be "experts."

I attended a seminar on malpractice suits a few years back; the lawyer who did most of the talking explained that an Expert Witness was unofficially defined as an 'expensive smart-a$$ from out of town.'

On topic -- I have exactly ZERO experience with lever-action rifles, so I don't have anythng useful to add to the original topic, BUT...
hitting a head-sized target at 200 yards with my rack-grade CMP Garand (no scope) is very challenging, but it can be done (even by me). For the record, if I ever found myself in a situation where I had to shoot a Bad Guy (y'know, Alien Invaders from Planet X-type scenario) at 200 yards, I doubt I'd feel confident enough to take a head-shot, but a center-mass shot would be no big deal.

 

[funfaler]

I have found my Marlin 30.30 to be more accurate than my Ruger 77, bolty.

As far as a 217 yard head shot, well, it is not a skill that most rifle owners have, but it is a skill that most rifle owners CAN learn.

I say someone takes AZRedhawk44 up on his offer to duplicate this task, and report back to us here.

 

[azredhawk44]

No takers?

I wasn't being fascetious. I'm not an expert marksman by any measurable certifiable standard. I've been to one rifle class my entire life... an Appleseed clinic, shooting at targets only 25 yards away. I did shoot "expert" on the AQT, but that was only at 25 yards.

I have never competed in NRA High Power or any other rifle or pistol competition. I've never harvested any big game animal.

I can make the described headshot at 200 yards from prone. I'd even give it a reasonable comfortable try from a kneeling/sitting position.

I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 THR lever gun shooters cannot score a single headshot on an IDPA target at 200 yards in 5 shots. Forget 217 yards. Irons just like this guy did in this case.

With five tries, I MIGHT even keep one or two of those shots on the pie plate at 200 yards while standing.

With 5 rounds as a warm-up and verification of sight-in (I haven't been shooting this rifle often enough to claim to do it immediately), I will put at least 3 of the next 5 shots into an 8" pie plate at 200 yards from prone. We can even let the bore cool from one shot group to the next... wait for cease fire, target change to complete then do the "real" thing when the line is hot again.

If anyone wants to watch me accomplish this or watch me eat crow, meet me at Ben Avery shooting range in Phoenix on either Wednesday or Thursday morning of next week.

Frankly, it irks me that 9 out of 10 of you have been called bad shots. It irks me that 9 out of 10 of you (as well as the jury in this trial) accept the misguided idea that this shot is not possible with the described equipment. It irks me that this "expert witness" got paid to do a piss-poor job (sorry, Art's gramma) and make Americans out to be bad shots. It irks me that a professional forensic examiner doesn't have the expertise to tell the difference between a .30 caliber flat-point rifle wound and a 9mm hollowpoint handgun wound. And it irks me that either a guy who was shooting at police officers (and may have killed one), or a fratricidal policeman, got off scott-free due to technical incompetence all around.

I just want to raise the bar for our expectations.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

If anyone wants to watch me accomplish this or watch me eat crow, meet me at Ben Avery shooting range in Phoenix on either Wednesday or Thursday morning of next week.

Frankly, it irks me that 9 out of 10 of you have been called bad shots. It irks me that 9 out of 10 of you (as well as the jury in this trial) accept the misguided idea that this shot is not possible with the described equipment. It irks me that this "expert witness" got paid to do a piss-poor job (sorry, Art's gramma) and make Americans out to be bad shots. It irks me that a professional forensic examiner doesn't have the expertise to tell the difference between a .30 caliber flat-point rifle wound and a 9mm hollowpoint handgun wound. And it irks me that either a guy who was shooting at police officers (and may have killed one), or a fratricidal policeman, got off scott-free due to technical incompetence all around.

'

Dude... Whatever. Somehow, this has turned into an opportunity for you to showcase your perceived shooting skills. You obviously know that people arent going to drive halfway across the country just to watch you shoot.

That isnt the point. The point isnt how good of a shot you think you are. Its whether or not an average person could be expected to make the shot described under stress and in the dark in the manner indicated.

For your information... I've been shooting for about 17 years. I've attended a bunch of schools, served seven yers in the army including two combat tours and I'm about to go back for another. I'm also instruct on marksmanship for the army national guard. I've attended 3 Appleseed clinics and I'm also on my state's military combat rifle and pistol team and have competed at the national level. So, I think I have a reasonable feel for what is an "average" shot (and shooter) and what is above average.

I never said the shot was impossible. I said that I wouldn't be confident in such a shot and that it was unlikely. Most of the others have said basically the same thing. I dont think I read anyone use the word "impossible".

 

[azredhawk44]

Dude... Whatever. Somehow, this has turned into an opportunity for you to showcase your perceived shooting skills. You obviously know that people arent going to drive halfway across the country just to watch you shoot.

Between snowbirds and locals, there are a lot of Phoenicians on this board. Not asking folks to fly anywhere... just for a couple of the retired members here (or anyone who can go shooting on a weekday morning) to come and try with me and act as witnesses for the total count.

Also... is this not a shooting board? Let's experiment. I've got a pair of Win94's and 500 rounds of 30-30 ammo. Let's get 10 americans out to the line and see how many can hit 1/5 on a pie plate at 200 yards.

I don't want to showcase me, I want to showcase US.

And I want to find a way to get this information back to the "expert marksman", the judge, and the jury. Whatever the outcome might be.

But I want to put fact to speculation. Maybe the guy is an expert marksman.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

What would 1/5 prove?

The guy who did the shooting didnt have 5 shots. He didnt have any "warmers" or "fouling shots". He had ONE shot... that is, if it actually happened. Also, to do the experiment correctly... you'd have to do it at night or in near-darkness, with only flickering blue and red lights providing the illumination. Whats more, you'd have to provide an element of stress to simulate what the shooter was undergoing.

 

[azredhawk44]

The guy who did the shooting didnt have 5 shots. He didnt have any "warmers" or "fouling shots". He had ONE shot... that is, if it actually happened. Also, to do the experiment correctly... you'd have to do it at night or in near-darkness, with only flickering blue and red lights providing the illumination. Whats more, you'd have to provide an element of stress to simulate what the shooter was undergoing.

I haven't shot my 30-30 in forever, whereas the shooter in this situation had it as a "truck gun". He was more familiar with the weapon. I want 5 shots to get re-acquainted with how this rifle feels since I've been shooting M14 and Mosin for the last couple years.

From the description by the OP, the shooter had more than 1 shot. If he did not, I apologize. But the "expert witness" had 14 shots, in daylight, and only connected with one.

The assertion was made that 9/10 THR members could not connect with 1/5 shots at 200 yards. I want to find out if that assertion is correct or not. I think we're better shots than that.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

If the shooter had more then one shot and those shots did not connect with the officer, they would have at least connected with the car he was sitting in... or else that would belay his status as a good shot.

No, the proposition was that this fellow did his dirty deed in ONE shot. In any case, that was what I was labeling as unlikely.

5 shots? Ok. Maybe.

 

[cracked butt]

I'm going to side with the view that its a very difficult and/or lucky shot.

At 200 yards I can put ever shot in a head sized target with iron sights, provided that the rifle is a 03A3 springfield or AR-15, shooting prone.
I demonstrated this once when I took a friend to a range- he asked me why I don't have scopes on my rifles, I told him irons work just fine but he didn't believe me. I set up 5 milk jugs full of water at 200 yards, slung up my 03A3, loaded 5 rounds and picked off all five- some of which were 1/2 obscured by the terrain, he was in awe. I told him that was easy, the x-ring I'm trying to hit is less than 1/2 that size when shooting high power. A lever action is not a springfield or an AR-15, and the cartridge it fires has a rainbow trajectory after 125 yards or so.

I owned a Win94 once, I might have been able to pull off a shot like that at 125 yards in daylight. The rifle had mediocre accuracy coupled with gawd-awful sights.

 

[General Geoff]

217 yard head shot with a .30-30 lever gun... sounds interesting. If I had one, I'd give it a try.

Remember that the guy with the .30-30 in this case was not an "average american." From what I read, he scored expert in the air force. If he was familiar with the gun, I'd say it's very possible he made the shot.

 

[whitetiger7654]

Expert only means someone with passable knowledge who is willing to make statements and get paid for them.

Nail on head. My law professor said "Everyone is an expert on something."

 

[Limeyfellow]

Was this a made-for-tv movie or a bio of a real case?

It was a real case.

Oh and the shots by the rifle were uphill too, to add a little more difficulty to the shot.

 

[TCB in TN]

I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 THR lever gun shooters cannot score a single headshot on an IDPA target at 200 yards in 5 shots. Forget 217 yards. Irons just like this guy did in this case.

I would completely disagree with this statement, especially since this comment does NOT limit its scope to the ole 30-30. I would be willing to bet that I could pull it of within 5 shots with my lil BLR 308!

The other point of contention I have is below.

Its whether or not an average person could be expected to make the shot described under stress and in the dark in the manner indicated.

No the point is could the guy in question pull the shot off. The average person (most of whom are not gunnys) would probably not know how to load the ole 30-30, but the guy in question might just be a regular shooter who knows his weapon and can use it well. (beware the man with one gun )

During my past there have been times when I was shooting enough with my rifles to be pretty decent. I have shot 2 1/2 to 3 inch groups at 200 yards standing (when I was really shooting a lot), I knew my rifle, my body, my mind, and was putting enough rounds down range to be pretty decent. Now'a'days, not so much so, with a good rest, no wind, and plenty of time I might do that one out of 5 times. But again the question is not my abillity to do so, but the guy there that night.

 

[Headless]

Everyone's arguing over weather or not they could do it in x shots, or x% of the time - you just gotta keep in mind that you not only have to do it in 2 shots or less - but in the dark too, to replicate what happened in this scenario. Darkness makes iron sights just a little difficult to see, don't you think? 217 yards in the dark...someone make this shot and record a video of it, i'd love to see that kind of shooting from iron sights without lighting.

 

[junyo]

Keep in mind it was the prosecution's contention that the shots were in fact a miss. Their expert said that with bullet drop shots from the 30-30 aimed directly at the cruiser's rooftop flashers would be entering the the car at head height. They never really claimed the guy was aiming at a head, just that he was humping shots at the car, and the officer turned and caught one in the eye.

Nevertheless, his brother was blazing away, and there was little to no blood in the car, so the defenses theory seemed more reasonable, their expert notwithstanding.

 

[Wheeler44]

What ammo?

What ammo was used by the guy with the 30-30? Was it factory flatpoints or leverevolutions or hand loads painstakingly worked up by a passionate shooter?

When I was younger I lived in Alaska. It would get dark pretty early in the winterime so we would have to shoot in low light conditions if we shot after school.
My buddy and I were passionate shooters. We would develope loads for our rifles and handguns for accuracy or velocity or how loud or how big a fireball it would make.

So to sum all of this rambling up, I sure wouldn't have wanted my buddy shooting at me with his old Winchester '94 30-30. Even in low light, even only one shot.

And I mean it.

Wheeler44

p.s. as for the stress the shooter was under, if he deliberately set out to shoot it out with the officers he might not have felt much stress at all, depending on his frame of mind at the time.

 

[rcmodel]

I've known a lot of old farmers & ranchers that would take you apart at 217 yards out the truck window with just an old Thutty-Thutty.

My dad regularly killed coyotes at 200 yards+ with his almost new Teddy Roosevelt Commemorative 94 rifle, and also his old 94 carbine, with 150 grain factory loads.

And he was still doing it quite regularly when he was almost 80 years old.

I have a 94 Carbine almost as old as I am that will shoot under 2 MOA all day long with 125 grain Sierra handloads, with factory sights.
And I'm going on 64!


rcmodel