Explain why a sporter/precision hybrid rifle is a bad idea

[Rustle in the bushes]

as someone who wants to

a) do moderately serious informal target practice to improve as a shooter. Mostly at 100 yards but eventually the odd trip out to crown land for some long range work. 200-300 yards.

b) hunt

the concept of owning one centerfire rifle is appealing. Since Im not competing I'm not sure if I need a 12lb bull barrel rifle. but I would still like to be able to shoot targets the size of a deer's vitals out to longer ranges eventually. I understand heat stringing with a thin bbl will show its face here during my practice sessions but is it THAT big a factor? can I just keep shooting and compensate for the stringing or does it just go all over the place?


Rifles Im considering are sako's 85, rem 700.(favorite left hand options) these are 7.5lb guns and I should be able to load down my cartridge 30-06/.308(I reload) to accomodate for longer practice sessions with recoil. For hunting Im thinking of picking up a macmillan stock which would drop the weight down about a LB, making the rifles easier to carry.

thanks for reading! how much of this is a bad idea?

 

[RPRNY]

Given your understanding of the potential issues and that you are prepared for the compromise, can't say that it is a bad idea - especially with a Sako 85! My .02% of a Loon: go 30-06. It offers greater distance potential with heavier weight bullets for both hunting in the Great White North and challenging your target distance. Finally, again MHO, I would trade off weight (stay at 7.5lbs) for recoil.

And then [digression] are you wedded to .308? 6.5mm and 7mm options abound which (given sectional densities and ballistic coeficients) will deliver as good performance both for hunting (6.5x55 160gr RN will do for elk and moose at 200 yards or less) and target shooting with less weight and less recoil. Sako 85 Finnlight in 260 7mm-08 or 6.5x55 would be my choices given your parameters [/digression]

Enjoy!

 

[Rustle in the bushes]

interested! Ill look into it

 

[jmr40]

I have that rifle.

100 yards

http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/?action=view&current=targets007.jpg

200 yards

http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums...513/jmr40/?action=view&current=targets006.jpg


300 yards.

http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums...513/jmr40/?action=view&current=targets002.jpg

The rifle. A 308 Winchester Extreme Weather, McMillan Edge stock, Leupold VX-3 scope 2.5-8X. Weight as it sets 7 lbs 6 oz including scope and mounts. It uses a medium weight barrel for stability with flutes for weight reduction. You can get lighter rifles, but most do it by cutting barrels short and making them thin. The weight on this one is in the barrel where it belongs. The weight reduction is in the stock, about 1/2 lb lighter than factory, and by choosing a lighter scope and mounts.

The scope is 12 oz. the mounts 2 oz. Many guys use 15-18 oz scopes with 6-8 oz steel rings that are not as strong as these 2 oz Talleys

http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums.../m513/jmr40/?action=view&current=guns1001.jpg

 

[matt 7mm]

i second the caliber reconsideration.I am a big 7mm-08 fan for low recoil and acccuracy but still plenty of power for deer size game.I am sure a 260rem or 6.5x55 would be great choises to but i have no personal experience with them.I would have bought a 260 if i didnt have a 7mm-08 20 years before the 260 came out.As far as rifle brand i like the rem 700 and the savage 14 or 16. I am also a lefty and i have found it a lot easier to find left handed savages than any other brands but that just mite be because that is what my local gun shop chooses to stock.

 

[Art Eatman]

"Explain why a sporter/precision hybrid rifle is a bad idea"

I can't. It ain't.

But a lot of the deal has to do with one's definition of "precision".

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I hope its not a bad idea

Because I'm neck deep (over $1,900) into building one myself....

Its not meant to be a match rifle, just a hunting rifle capable of shooting 1 MOA out to around 600 yards...thats all I will ever ask of it.

Mine is a new (FN) Winchester M70 Ultimate Shadow in 30-06...I added a Vortex Viper HS scope (4-16x44mm) and a McMillan stock (Winchester Supergrade version...marbled in color, olive-black-tan...33% of each)

Don't let anybody tell you its a bad idea...its not...just remember to not expect it to be what it ain't...it likely won't win any matches...but I'm certain it will fill the freezer!

Fully loaded and ready to hunt...it will weigh about 8.75 lbs...a tad heavy for carrying but nothing I can't handle...a tad light for precision shooting, but again, nothing I can't handle...those are the trade offs.

EDIT: I'd post a pic...but I'm still waiting on the stock...should be here in about 2 more weeks.

 

[Big_E]

A medium contour barrel that is fluted helps reduce weight while still providing a decent level of stiffness and cooling for faster consecutive shots. Having a shorter barrel like 20'' helps too, and optimizing for a cartridge like .308 or .338 so you don't go too overbore. A combo hunting/target rifle is feasible.

Of course, it would be better to have a rifle strictly for precision and one strictly for hunting. I am a big fan of trying to maximize the most utility in guns so yeah you can definitely get by with a "hybrid."

 

[browningguy]

Who ever said it was a bad idea?

 

[C-grunt]

The only problem with it is it won't be the best at either. That doesn't mean it won't be great at both though.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The only problem with it is it won't be the best at either. That doesn't mean it won't be great at both though.

Yep...that pretty much sums it up.

 

[X-Rap]

I have a Weatherby Accumark and 700 Sendero, they weigh a little more than 7.5 lbs but I don't mind the extra weight and I hunt in the mountains. I haven't tackled anything much past 450 yds but the Accumark did a fine job. The Rem is new to me and not yet used in the field, got a couple elk tags to fill so I hope it works. Worked up a load with 185 Bergers and it shoots pretty good. I view both rifles as sporters and have similar hopes to yours for both of them.

 

[WardenWolf]

The only problem with it is it won't be the best at either. That doesn't mean it won't be great at both though.

Well, there's practical rifles and there's specialized rifles. A specialized precision rifle may be able to shoot dimes all day long, but it may also weigh 15 pounds. Obviously this would not be a practical rifle. The thing is, you really don't lose much in the way of precision when you go practical. It's only important for those people who want every last millimeter of accuracy, and your average person cannot even shoot at that level. You can have an 8-pound hunting rifle that shoots 1/2 MOA. That's a practical rifle, with a high degree of precision; far more than you'll ever need or could ask for. Even 3/4 or 1 MOA would be acceptable.

 

[valnar]

Your practical moves over into precision territory by virtue of putting a Sako 85 on the list. I'd go with that.

If your goal is to shoot a lot for target practice, as opposed to one or two shots needed for hunting, I second the recommendation for 6.5x55 or a similar cartridge. You get 'enough' hit to take out deer or elk, with a softer shooting caliber for extended target practice. You also can't beat the B.C. of 6.5x55. 300 yards is a no brainer for it.

 

[BSA1]

as someone who wants to

a) do moderately serious informal target practice to improve as a shooter. Mostly at 100 yards but eventually the odd trip out to crown land for some long range work. 200-300 yards.

b) hunt

a. Depends on how many rounds you fire and time betwen shots, i.e. firing multiple rounds as quickly as you can load them or firing single shots and giving the barrel a few minutes to cool between shots.

b. What are you hunting, prairie dogs or deer? Prairie dogs is a target rich environment, deer hunting usually is 1 shot may be 2 but rarely more than 3 rounds.

 

[adelbridge]

it would be easy to buy a rifle to do both precision work and hunting. The compromise would be in the cartridge selection.

 

[Rustle in the bushes]

Since i reload i can load my 30-06 way down for low recoil target practice. Then take advantage of the extra oomph when i need to go hunting by loading it fiercely. I would consider the 6.5 are there any advantages for me?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Since i reload i can load my 30-06 way down for low recoil target practice. Then take advantage of the extra oomph when i need to go hunting by loading it fiercely. I would consider the 6.5 are there any advantages for me?

Not really. Short action rounds save a couple of ounces or so in rifle weight, but that's all.

I would approach the project from the hunting aspect -- grab your rifle and hike over Hardscrabble Mountain in Eagle County, Colorado (my favorite elk hunting grounds.) You'll see the value of a light rifle from that exercise.

Once you settle on a comfortable weight, look into accuracy. You'll find lots of light-weight rifles that deliver minute of angle accuracy or better.

 

[rcmodel]

Woops!

Posted in wrong thread!

rc

 

[CraigC]

Why does this sound like a new idea for something that already exists??? All you're talking about is an accurate hunting rifle.

 

[RPRNY]

One problem I see with the 30-06 model of load down for target and up for hunting is that you will shoot way more target loads than hunting loads. You will have to re-sight for your hunting loads and then make sure to remember your holds when hunting.

With 6.5x55 you get a lighter rifle (you can even go Sako 85 20" carbine in 6.5SE), flatter trajectory and, with recoil not much more than a 30-30 lever gun, you can shoot 140 gr VLD for target and SP for hunting anything short of elk and moose when the 160 RN comes into play. If you go 30-06, get a heavy rifle and head to the gym. A light rifle will kick you about or you'll end up loading with Trail Boss and throwing rainbows

 

[shadow9]

Quote:
Since i reload i can load my 30-06 way down for low recoil target practice. Then take advantage of the extra oomph when i need to go hunting by loading it fiercely. I would consider the 6.5 are there any advantages for me?
Not really. Short action rounds save a couple of ounces or so in rifle weight, but that's all.

I would approach the project from the hunting aspect -- grab your rifle and hike over Hardscrabble Mountain in Eagle County, Colorado (my favorite elk hunting grounds.) You'll see the value of a light rifle from that exercise.

Once you settle on a comfortable weight, look into accuracy. You'll find lots of light-weight rifles that deliver minute of angle accuracy or better.

6.5x55 is a Medium-action, not short. Also, it has a HUGE advantage against .30-06 - a well constructed bullet and precise shot will drop most of the same game a .30-06 will, with at least 30% less recoil. Recoil becomes your primary concern with weight-reduction on your rifle...

IMO: Downloading .30-06/etc. is an option, but it changes your ballistics - so when it comes time to make that critical 250-300yd shot you have gotten all geared up for - there's a chance you'll miss. With the increased and sudden recoil, you may flinch on your followup too, making matters worse. You'd be better to find a caliber you can practice with EXACTLY what you shoot. Besides, it's not the "oomph" that drops game - it's where that bullet goes.

Take a look into 7x57 Mauser, and 6.5x55 Swede (or .260Rem and 7mm-08 - their modern day short-action twins). The 6.5 (.264)'s are absolute queens of sectional density, and the 7mm (.284) is often called the "Ballistician's bullet" - king of BC. The only time you'll start to creep back up on .284 range BC's is with the super-long/heavy .30 cals, and getting into .338 ranges - both of which develop much more recoil for the same level of output.

Again, YMMV.

 

[Rustle in the bushes]

super interesting. I really do like the idea of a lower recoil cartridge as my usage will likely be 70% range, 30% hunting. The only issue is that I do plan on hunting elk at some point in the future. Ive heard some people consider .308 as the lower range of "good" cartridges for this purpose and havent seen much mentioned of the 6.5 swede as an elk cartridge.

Of course I want to- the recoil is great and the ballistics are as well. but some people use big magnums for elk. Shot placement is super important but doesnt having a .30 cal like the 308/30-06 allow for a bit of leniency and more range vs a round like 6.5? How can I quantify the difference?

 

[X-Rap]

The idea of just having one gun is not very appealing to me so I don't do the exersize that you are involved in.
The gun I choose to carry in the field is based on the game,(single or multi species) terrain, distance expected. It might have a scope or not and shoot a bullet weighing from 90 grs to 450.
Your concept is not a bad one but I would wish for calibers in at least 6mm, 7mm, and 30 or 338.

 

[ACP]

Rustle, you ask a good question, and have received many fine replies. I esp. like that fellow with the new Winchester all-weather. He has an awesome set-up.

The problem as I see it is, what is "moderately serious informal target practice"??

Are you loking for the smallest possible groups at 200-300 yards? You will need a heavy barrel, a high-power scope, a rigid stock, proper bedding, an excellent trigger and a bipod. That's a 12-13 lb. proposition right there, not good for carrying in the field.

You will also have to fine-tune a handload to your rifle, not only to get the best accuracy, but also to make practice affordable. Factory loads are too expensive for serious practice.

If you're not shooting off a bench, will you be happy with 2-3 MOA offhand at a couple hundred yards? If that's okay, skip the "precision/sniper" stuff and drop down to your 7.5 lb. rifle. You will NOT hold a quarter-inch or probably even an inch with a field rest and field shooting positions, so why spend the money on the equipment that can help you do that? It's wasted, like driving a Corvette 55mph on the highway.

Sakos are great if you are only to get one long gun. I really like the specs. on the Winchester all-weather. Great stock, great barrel, super trigger on the two models I have handled in the LGS.

Now comes the caliber chase. Elk? If you can stalk within 200 yards I say you have your pick of calibers. Flat-shooters and light recoilers are .260 and 6.5x55. Mid-range would be 7mm-08 and .308. After that you can shoot .270, 30-06, .280 and 7mm Rem. Mag.

200-300 yards is not long yardage for a "target" rifle. In fact, it is well within the mean point blank range for all of the above cartridges, most of which are in the upper 200 yard MPBR (shot won't vary 3 inches high or low from crosshairs at 260-310 yards for most of those rounds).

What kills is bullet placement. You can generally do that better with a light-recoiling cartridge because there is no flinch, plus you practice more, so you get better. So I would get a Sako in 7mm-08 with a moderate scope and handload for it.

Best of luck to you.