Extractor failure

[1911Tuner]

Had an extractor break today during my daily constitutional...It was a Series 80 Brown hardcore that I installed right after I got the gun a month ago to replace the MIM POS that was in it. While setting the tension in my usual way, I felt saw/felt the stem give in the plunger cutout...so I knew it wouldn't be long for this world. It snapped today. Since I modify my extractors during prep and fitting, it's not likely that the warranty will cover it...but I've got a USGI extractor ready to go back in it, since my beaters have all had the lawyer parts removed and nobody shoots'em but me.

Just a word to advise that the original design should be used whenever possible, such as in the un-lawyered Series 80 guns. The plunger offers support in the extractor cutout, which you lose when it's removed...weakening the part. This was probably a defective extractor...probably soft or out of spec in the cutout... since I've never had this happen with a Hardcore in the past, but it's still a consideration.

That is all...

 

[Old Fuff]

Gee ... I had the plunger problem solved long before the Series 80 came out.

I think if, in the unlikely event I happened to get a S-80 pistol, I would included in the usual list of modifications - a press fit pin in the locking bolt hole, and then drill through it crossways to clear the extractor tunnel. Thereafter I'd use a Series 70 or earlier (did anyone say USGI?) extractor.

Somehow I would prefer not to have any extra holes in my slide ... :banghead:

 

[1911Tuner]

Plunger Problem

Right-O Fuff...The Series 80 pistols that I have are good, solid performers that I picked up to use for beaters, and have taken a real beating
over the years. No complaints at all. This latest one came to me through a friend who didn't need another 1911, and was selling it to finance the purchase of....a Glock...of all things! He's been required by his agency
to carry and qualify with the Glock, and he didn't have one to practice with...
So I bought it for the princely sum of 300 bucks. The gun hadn't been fired more than 500 rounds since he bought it in '95. Couldn't pass it up. My brace of range guns are gettin' a bit long in the tooth. The two Billboard 91A1s are on their third barrels, and both have been rebuilt and refitted once, and are well into headed for 150,000 round each. I figure that one more swaging/refitting and they'll be ready for semi-retirement...and since I don't plan on wearin' out my older Commercial pistols or my Rands...or the
*Union Switch* and I gotta feed this addiction...I'll buy a Series 80
for the right price in half a NC heartbeat. I also picked up a NRM Government Model back in 2001 that I let lay in the safe until just recently, but it's been called up for yeoman service startin' last fall. Doin' rather well, too I might add. An estimated 30,000 rounds so far with maybe 5 burps. Reliable enough for range work. I just have a problem with malfunction clearance drills...I almost never get to do'em. One of the old 91A1s has never malfunctioned. The other one...maybe one a year pops up. Boring... Maybe I need to get a few 8-round mags so I can practice...

 

[1911WB]

Broken extractor

At the risk of starting a "war" with Brown fanatics, I have lost a great deal of respect for their small 1911 parts lately ( although I still like the Memory Grove GS). Their Hardcore slidestops are now cast for example. I use Wilson extractors to replace the POS SA ones, and have had good luck with them so far. However, I also wouldn't hesitate to try EGW & Caspian extractors if the opportunity presents itself. Tuner, one thing I wonder is who makes a really quality SS extractor in case my new SA 9mm 1911 messes up (so far there are no problems thry the first 225 rounds fired)?

 

[45auto]

Tuner:

" Maybe I need to get a few 8-round mags so I can practice... "

Ha, no faith.

Your 150,000 round 1991A1'a are on their 3rd barrels. Are they "breaking" or wearing out and not giving you the accuracy you desire?

I need a new barrel and your very good, recent posts on the Kart have me tempted to try it.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

.45Auto...The discarded barrels' rifling had worn to the point that accuracy was sufferring. The originals went about 30,000 rounds exclusively with jacketed hardball reloads. (I ran into a real deal on a bulk buy for the bullets...so I used'em.) The second barrels were starting to show the early signs of degrading accuracy with mostly cast bullets...one moreso than the other... so I replaced those at 100,000 rounds when I rebuilt the guns. A mixture of cast and jacketed, at about an 80/20 ratio respectively. I replaced the barrels on the rebuild with the plain old 90-dollar Springfield stainless one-piece service barrels...light fitting required...and have shot cast bullets almost exclusively ever since. They're (The barrels) somewhere around the 30,000 round mark with zero detectable difference in accuracy. Lead doesn't wear'em much. Never up to match-grade capabilities, they'll stay on the targets that I shoot at...at whatever distance I can hold still enough TO hit'em...and that's all I need. They'll consistently ring a 10-inch steel plate at 50 yards if I do my part.

WB...Brown's Hardcore parts are every bit the equal of Wilson's Bulletproof line. They're subject to the same problems as any mass-produced part suppled by a vendor, and better than most. You can get a lemon or a pearl with anything. The Hardcore slidestops are castings, but of the several that I've used, have proven to be very good. Wilson's Bulletproof stop is the only commercially-available machined steel stop that I know of...and it's pricey.
For a beater, the almost as good Hardcore will do nicely...at about 60% of the cost. For a gun with serious purpose...only the best, of course, but for
strictly a range queen, I wouldn't...and don't have...a problem. Never seen one break. For that matter, the McCormick MIM stop is pretty good for about 20 bucks. I keep one in my range box for a spare...just in case.
I didn't have a spare extractor with me when the Hardcore let go. :banghead: So I had to put that one back in the case. No sweat.
I take 3 or 4 pistols when I go shoot so I can rotate'em and let'em cool off a little.

 

[Old Fuff]

Tuner:

Oh dear … The Old Fuff did not mean to imply that he wouldn’t steal … I mean … a … “acquire” a Series 80 pistol if the opportunity presented itself. However so far no one that desperate has crossed his threshold. Folks in my neck-of-the-wood that buy Colts seem satisfied with the block, and some even like them. But the vast majority of buyers that are still wedded to Ol’ Slabsides seem to be more enamored with the offerings from Springfield Armory.

In the meantime while the Fuff waits for good fortune to strike he is well served by his (mostly) pre- Series 70 pistols of various parentage. Thus he isn’t exactly chaffing at the bit trying to find anything of current origin. However both eyes are peeled.

What is more likely to happen (and has) is that some younger buyer, either through bad judgment or lack of better sense, may approach him with a Series 80 in hand that he wants … a … “modified.”

The Old Fuff has given this some thought. In the past he simply left the block in the slide after making certain that it couldn’t interfere with the normal operation of the firing pin. This works, and is reversible – one can return to the factory configuration.

But after reviewing Tuners experience, I think in the future a new plug; press-fit into the hole, and then cross-drilled to clear out the extractor tunnel might be a better idea. The plug would prevent fouling and other questionable stuff from getting into the tunnel. And at the same time allow for the substitution of true-to-spec extractor.

Da’ Fuff finds himself in an interesting situation. He cannot stop progress, if progress it really is; but at the same time so far as his personal needs are concerned he doesn’t have to. On the other hand, up-and-coming owners are not so fortunate, as many threads and posts on this and other forums illustrate. The challenge then, is to make the new stuff as reliable and satisfactory as the older, well proven pistols – without requiring the current generation to take out a second mortgage on the farm to pay for it. This alone is enough good reason to develop a satisfactory conversion procedure for those who are compelled to buy a pistol with the firing pin block, but at the same time don’t trust it. Trust after all, is absolutely necessary if you carry any handgun as a personal weapon.

 

[1911Tuner]

Hole in da Slide!

The old Fuff needn't worry about the hole. It hasn't presented a problem in any of my holey beaters, and I clean'em every 2500-3,000 rounds, whether they need it or not.

Wouldn't be comfortable with the open hole in a carry gun though. Murphy crashes quite enough of my parties as it is without handin' him an engraved inviation. With my luck, the Rock of Gibraltar would find its way into the firin' pin channel just when the Hound of the Baskervilles was bearin' down on me with gleamin' fangs...

 

[1911Tuner]

No Faith

Quote:

>>Ha...No faith.<<
******************

Faith in proper magazines is what I have.

Truthfully...I went down the 8-round Road some years ago. Being prone to experimenation, I actually converted some standard mags to hold 8 rounds a few years before Devel hit the market with the first commercially-produced 8-rounders that I'm aware of. Mine didn't work consistently...for very long... and neither did the Devels. About 100 cycles, and things started to pop.
(Yep...I bought a couple of'em to try out the newfangled followers.) Good magazines, but the followers and springs produced the same problems that I see today...with the same followers and springs. The McCormick Powermag
at least uses enough spring to partially make up for the loss of last-round control and release timing lost when the dimple disappeared...but not completely...and only until the spring starts to lose strength. The good news is that Chip had the foresight to use Wolff extra-power springs in'em, and Wolff makes very good, long-lived springs. The followers still don't consistently control the last round, though.

I just know that somewhere...somehow...ol' John Mose is goin'

 

[NMshooter]

My MIM extractor in my Kimber is still going strong.

Am I just lucky, or are they decent?

 

[1911Tuner]

MIM edtractors

NMSHooter...Some break quick and some don't. I've seen it go both ways.
If the magazine works like it should, and doesn't cause a snapover feed, an MIM extractor that doesn't have any voids, air bubbles or other such defects
can do surprisingly well. If snapover feeds do occur, that will cause one to fail in fairly short order. The single biggest problem with MIM extractors is their inability to hold tension over the long term, and when you start bendin' on'em, they usually don't last long after that.

I ran an experiment on an MIM extractor a few years back. I did a few light modifications and heated the part before bending it for tension. I adjusted the bend in a fixture in which a screw applied the bend by crankin' it down and allowing it to sit for 24 hours. The extractor ran like a champ for over 15,000 rounds in a Colt Commander. When the end came, it wasn't a break, but rather a loss of tension that couldn't be restored for more than 3-4 magazines full.

So...The answer to both questions is yes. You can get a decent one, and you got lucky. Colt dropped MIM extractors about 3 years ago due to all the returns and warranty issues.

One day...when the process has been refined to the point that every part is the same, at such a cost as to be acceptable, you will likely see complete guns...barrels and all... made from MIM. It's here to stay. Bet on that.

 

[Kruzr]

My MIM extractor in my Kimber is still going strong.

Maybe it's because your Kimber extractor is not MIM. None of the Kimber internal extractors are MIM.
The only extractors I've ever broken were Wilson Bulletproof Stainless ones (2) and a Les Baer extractor. Sometimes stuff breaks.

 

[1911Tuner]

Kimber Extractor

Kruzr...You're right! As far as I know,(and just remembered when your post hit) Colt is the only company that dinked around with MIM extractors. Kimber never used'em.

To know for sure, remove the extractor and look at the butt-end, 6 O'clock.
If there's a rectangular indentation, it's MIM. If it's not there, It's not.
If there's a parting line that splits the extractor lengthwise...it's cast. I haven't seen a cast extractor in years. Auto Ordnance used'em...Can't think of who else...Maybe Colt did for a short time during the early Series 70 days.

 

[NMshooter]

WooHoo!

Guess I am good to go with the extractor, then.

How long DO those things last, anyway?

 

[1911Tuner]

How Long

Ahhhh...My bud wrote a blues tune by that title. He ran over here to get me to figger out the leads to it and we thought he'd get rich...

Shooter, A really good extractor...one made of spring-tempered 1090 steel and correctly tensioned...that isn't forced to climb the rim during feeding and chambering, has the potential to outlast the gun itself. Yours may or may not be made of that particular material, but if it's good quality 4130 or 4140 steel, it will likely wreck your budget tryin' to buy enough ball ammo to cause it to fail. At the most, it'll need a periodic retensioning about every 25 or 30,000 rounds. I have a USGI extractor in one of my beaters that was cannabalized around 1980 from a 1918 Colt that has worn out one gun, and been with another one that I shot to destruction. This is its fourth pistol to date and it's still shuckin'em. Other than having to reset the tension whenever I swapped it to different guns and periodic cleaning...and one retensioning near the end of the line for the one that I broke...it didn't need
anything at all.

The recent crop of aftermarket extractors...which yours is, since Kimber doubtless gets its small parts from outsources instead of making them... are typically made of the steels mentioned above, and have given excellent service, especially when lightly modified to make them a litle less rigid and more "springy"...and even when not modified, have lived long and prospered
as long as they're correctly heat-treated. If yours is doing well past the 1500-2,000 round mark, you're probably good to go for 25,000+.

 

[Old Fuff]

I agree with Tuner's observations about "to original specification" extractors. It's all in the material, heat treating, and fitting. The only time I got one to predictably break was by using WW-2 and Korean War era steel cased ammunition that had too narrow extractor grooves. These could twist the hook until it broke off.

Excluding the higher priced guns, I don't think any of the current makers take the time to adjust or fit extractors. The curret day assemblers simply stick one in and let it go at that. If you disassemble older guns you often find where the blue or Parkerizing is filed, ground or polished off where some "adjusting" was done.

Concerning exterior extractors. Browning's earlier pistols with exposed hammers had exterior extractors mounted on the right side of the slide. This included both those in .38 and .45 caliber. He didn't change this until 1910, at the very end of the .45 pistol's development, and he obviously did so for a reason ...

 

[1911Tuner]

Browning's Reasons

Fuff wisely observed:

Concerning exterior extractors. Browning's earlier pistols with exposed hammers had exterior extractors mounted on the right side of the slide. This included both those in .38 and .45 caliber. He didn't change this until 1910, at the very end of the .45 pistol's development, and he obviously did so for a reason ...

Yep. When we stop to consider just what and whom the gun was developed for, it'll start to get clearer. No doubt that the Army Ordnance Department had some input on it. They did in almost every other aspect during the development process. One of the aspects of the gun that kicked Savage off the screen was the fact that it could be disassembled in the field...without
armorer's tools...and parts easily and quickly replaced or serviced. The internal extractor is a large, easily handled part compared to an external extractor and its tiny spring and retaining pin. Tiny parts are much more likely to be lost under adverse conditions, rendering the pistol useless. The fewer small parts, the lower the liklihood of losing one under those circumstances. Also, the standardization and interchangeability of all parts within a given gun...regardless of who made what...made it possible to simply swap out one part for another with a very high chance of having a functional weapon without having to hand-fit everything. Not always...but very often.
Even major parts such as the slides and frames would slip together and work most of the time...at least for long enough to get the job done and get it back to the unit armorer to verify its status, or repair as needed. Usually all that was needed was to simply gauge and select-fit a given part in order to return the gun to spec.

So, the reasons were probably simply the logical choices for a gun that was destined...at that point in history...for some pretty nasty conditions. As with anything else in any design...Everything is ultimately a compromise. This one happened to be a very good one.