Extreme Leading - .22 cal - SW 617

[243winxb]

22LR Bad Ammo??

You have an ammo problem is my guess. The lube or coating on each bullet/brand is different. Lube/coatings can have an effect on accuracy and leading.When testing 5 different brands of 22lr in my Mossberg rifle, one lot caused a wild swing in point of impact and accuracy. More testing showed a conflick between lubes. My S&W m17 22lr when shooting one brand left a ring of lead in the barrels rifling. This was without switching between brands. After cleaning all lead out, i test fired with the defective ammo, watching as the lead build up, formed the same ring. Knowing the history of my revolver was proof enought for me that it was an ammo problem. Always clean before switching brands of 22lr ammo to test. I have seen case heads bulge on firing that would push the fired casing off the bolt face in a auto, bad ammo. Another was some Rem. walmart bulk, the bullets were deformed. Looked like the bullet is swaged on loading into the brass, bad ammo. Do more ammo testing before you send the firearm back for repair.

 

[22-rimfire]

I also agree that you should do some more ammo testing. In particular I think you should use copper coated CCI 22LR ammo (Mini Mags) for this next test. However, I have never seen anything like what you have after so few rounds fired.

 

[243winxb]

Cylinder Rotation

cylinder rotation starts to jam as it gets dirtier, but I read that's normal with this gun.

No, its not normal. There should be a gap of .004" to .009" between the barrel and cylinder. The closer the better. The method used to finish S&W cylinder can leave a high spot on the face of the cylinder. This high spot, when it collects fouling, will rub on the barrel. A gun smith can clean this up on a lathe.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think that's your problem -- misalignment of the chambers. I'd send it back to S&W with those pictures, plus the pictures of the lead shavings.

 

[Skinny 1950]

I had the same problem with a Ruger Single Six (old model) shooting CCI Blazer,I switched to CCI Standard Velocity and problem solved.
It seems that the hotter ammo leaves lead in the barrel.

 

[paul105]

When I first got my 617, I checked it on paper and it would shoot 1.5 to 2” 25 yd groups with the Wal Mart bulk ammo. This was good enough for my intended purpose, so I didn’t try different brands. One day I was shooting and missing everything badly. Hung a target and couldn’t even hit paper at 25 yds – kept moving closer until I manage a hit – it key holed badly as did several subsequent shots. Took the gun home and discovered leading so severe you couldn’t see any rifleing. When I ran a bronze brush down the barrel I managed to stick the brush in the barrel thread area. I stripped the threads on the cleaning rod/brush trying to remove it. I took it to my gunsmith who had to remove the barrel to get the brush out. He also spent a couple of hours cleaning the lead out. Got the barrel re centered and shooting to POA with the rear sight centered and sold the gun.

I have several 22s that are shot frequently with the same ammo and have never seen a bore brush and show no evidence of leading.

Paul

 

[BCRider]

That's some excellent photography. What did you use for a light source and which gap did you use to inject it into the chamber?

Ya know, it may be the chamber in the second photo that is doing all the bad stuff. Certainly the chamber in the first picture looks darn fine. But the one in the second pic is a mile out. I could see that one deforming the bullet sufficiently to produce the lead buildup. Assuming you marked the chambers for numbering I'd send back all your pictures with your gun and let them get the timing corrected on that chamber.

But before you panic note that you want to do these pictures from having lowered the hammer and with the trigger still held back. That way the hand is restricting back rotation and your cylinder play, if any, will be the least with the trigger pulled back at the end of a "shooting" cycle of the internals. Just lower the hammer by had to avoid the risk of the firing pin striking the cylinder.

 

[reppans]

Wow Paul, that one sounds really strange... perhaps the gun suddenly went of time and caused that fouling, jamming.

BCRider, It was just a flashlight shining in the gap by the firing pin. As I mentioned, I just left the gun cocked in SA mode.... I didn't have enough hands to do everything at once. Didn't matter much, as hammer down/trigger held basically looked about the same to my eyes.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm no expert but that second picture would worry me, especially on a new revolver. That is some fairly heavy misalignment you photographed there. Even if you didn't pay as much as you did for that revolver it would be going back to the manufacturer if it were mine.

 

[Chief_Cabioch]

just my opinion here for what it's worth but I see a possible issue in the rifeling were some rifeling may have some flaws causing it to peel material off the bullet like a "shaper"

the focus on the barrel isnt good enough for me to see the groves and if there are flaws that would act like a machine tool , but the cylinder alighenment is off in the second pic so thats an obvious issue...a good gunsmith would be able to tell you, and if it's a new gun, the factory would fix it I am betting.....

 

[oldfool]

"It seems that the hotter ammo leaves lead in the barrel."

hotter stuff might well tend to "lead" just a teeny tad quicker, but nothing like that
my WMRs (and centerfires) don't do that, be they auto or wheelgun, and WMR is obviously hotter than 22LR.. and I am anything but picky about what bulk range fodder I run thru 'em

again note, OP said only 200 rounds fired, that's nothing for a rimfire
picture two sure looks off-line to me, and no brand of ammo will change that

 

[918v]

Accuracy is not as good as I was hoping, I definitely think I can shoot my 686 better

That's my experience with the 617 as well. The best it would do is 1.5" at 15 yards which sucks compared to a typical autoloader. Mine didn't lead, though. Send it back. See what they do for you.

 

[CraigC]

This is not a timing issue. You have an alignment issue. Timing is the relationship between the hammer, trigger, bolt and hand and how those parts affect cylinder rotation. It is mutually exclusive of chamber/bore alignment. Timing can be adjusted through normal gunsmithing procedures. Poor alignment is usually a manufacturing defect not easily corrected without major parts replacement. Minor alignment issues can be resolved through Taylor throating. You did the right thing by sending it back to S&W.

A good .22LR should never lead the bore. Nor should you need to ever run a brush down the bore.

 

[RalphS]

I own a 617-6. If I shoot any of the cheap Remington ammo, it leads the barrel alot (to the point of obstructing the barrel). With Federal ammo, leading is minimal. With CCI Std Velocity, there is hardly any leading.

 

[Stainz]

In my 'how nasty can it get and still work' trial, I was over half way through the second 550 brick of WallyWorld Fed 36gr plated HP's when I relented and cleaned my 4" 617. It was still just as functional as when it was freshly cleaned. I bought it new 9/08 - and it's diet has always been mainly those Fed el-cheapo's. Sure, I've tried other ammo - from Eley Match to CCI Stingers, which were more difficult to chamber. I have been so satisfied with the Fed el-cheapo's, I have settled on them exclusively. Note - I did find excessive lead/residue buildup on my f.c. after shooting a mix of match ammo and those Stingers - that was the only time. I would try the new 617 with those el-cheapo WallyWorld Federals for that problem before I would send it in. With their summer shut down, you likely won't lose much 'time', anyway - and it might have been the ammo.

My cleaning is with wet (Hoppes #9) swipes followed - after allowing time to soak - by dry swipes. About every other cleaning, I finish with a .22 BoreSnake pull-through the bore.

Stainz

 

[reppans]

OK guys, just want to get back to you as I went to the range yesterday for some ammo testing.

- 150 Rounds of Federal - Wallyworld bulk box of 550 (?).
- Cleaned gun

- 100 Rounds of CCI - MiniMags (same as first time)
- Cleaned gun

Federal, ran through just fine.... gun did not jam or bind this time. Gun was surprisingly clean, think I just used 2 patches (I use Ballistol) for the bore and cylinder and was done. Ran a .22 brass bore brush though it, just to see if it would pick something up I couldn't see.... nothing, completely clean brush. Did feel one "spit", hit me on the cheek while shooting though.

CCI - had 2 fails to fire, interestingly one after the other. Firing pin indentations looked normal enough, I did not re-try them. Gun cleaned up fine, pretty much just like the Federal, but running the bore brush through produced maybe 2 small flakes of lead, nothing that concerned me.

In contrast, when I ran the bore brush through after the Remington, it reminded me of an umbrella opening as the long strips of lead came out and peeled outward

Accuracy? Can't tell the difference between the brands. I can shoot the 617 more accurately than my Glock 19 (expected), which I was also shooting yesterday, but I'll have to test it side-by-side against my 686, currently my most accurate hand gun. I was hoping the 617 might take that honor over, if nothing else due to low recoil, but I don't think that it will - might be close though.

So bottom line, my limited experience with Rem and Fed ammo is same as RalphS's, and on my way home, I just cleaned out my locally Wallyworld of their Federal .

I own a 617-6. If I shoot any of the cheap Remington ammo, it leads the barrel alot (to the point of obstructing the barrel). With Federal ammo, leading is minimal. With CCI Std Velocity, there is hardly any leading.

In all fairness, I can not totally condemn Remington's "Golden Bullet" until I run it through the gun again, but I just don't want to subject my gun to that kind of abuse again. Let's just say I'm 90% certain that these bullets just plain suck .

I still may send the gun in for warranty, as the slight chamber/barrel misalignment bugs me, and also, there are a few screws that looked kind of "hacked" - both are not something you'd expect on a brand new, expensive gun like this. But I'll put some more rounds through it, and at least get over the new toy thing before I have part with it for several weeks.

Between the Federal and CCI, I can now see why guys don't bother with bore brushes on .22s.... I think I'm going to like shooting .22s even more than the cost savings might suggest. Cleaning 38 special crud rings out the magnum is a royal pain - did I mention that I hate cleaning guns?

Thanks for all your help with my problem, I love these forums.

 

[CraigC]

I wouldn't condemn any load that a sixgun with alignment issues didn't like. It needs to go back to S&W.

I burn through 2000-3000rds of Remington bulk each month. If it "sucked", I wouldn't use it. It's just as reliable as Federal (more reliable in some guns) but is a better game load that expands reliably at handgun velocities. I run this stuff through two dozen rimfire guns. The only load I've ever had lead a bore was Federal but it cleared up after ~500rds.

 

[reppans]

Well, I guess you are right - I should keep my opinions more in line with *my* particular defective gun - I just found it interesting that a couple people commented similar issues with Remington here.

I'm sure if it was truly bad, it probably would have been squashed from the market long ago - guess it just goes in line with what people say that different guns work better with different ammo.