Fact or Fantasy?

[280PLUS]

I recently met a guy of Thai descent. He was in the Thai army in the mid 60's to the mid 70's. He spent TEN YEARS in Vietnam fighting the NVA and Viet Cong. He told me something today and I thought I'd run it by the crew over here. He said that the M-16 was nearly useless in the rain there. Not because it wouldn't work but becasue the rounds were going so fast and were so small that hitting the rain drops would disintegrate them so that more than ~100 yds and the majority of your rounds weren't going to make it to your target if it was raining. He said you could see them exploding in midair downrange. Meanwhile the AK-47 round had no such problem. He went on to say that among other reasons this was one why the NVA were more prone to attack in the rainy weather than sunny. That and the fact that the effectiveness of air cover was lessened by overcast which kept them from being spotted by aircraft. He said "We knew, if it was sunny, they no come but if it was rainy and overcast, they come."

Can anyone here verify what he's telling me?

 

[Lupinus]

explaoding on rain drops

that is new

The AR/M16 aint the best thing since sliced bread and I'd rather have an AK since it is more reliable....but explaoding on rain drops is a new one.

 

[Mal H]

I imagine a very hard rain could deflect the bullet enough to miss the target. But, explode? Baloney!

 

[AJ Dual]

It sounds reasonable, except for the whole rain/.223 part.

The lighter 55gr .223 does deflect more on brush etc than the 100-odd gr .30 slug of 7.62x39, but the effect in rain, especialy during ambush full-auto area effect firefighting would be statisticaly negligable.

Even if someone did have an actual poin-target to fire at, like a Viet Cong or NVA regular, I doubt that rain would deflect .223 so much it was outside of "minute of torso" at 100 yards.

When you're saturating an area target with fire, even if .223 was a bit off trajectory in the rain, who's to say just as many rounds would be deflected into the enemy as away?

 

[TimboKhan]

Um... yeah, I am gonna have to call BS on that story. I am no ballistics expert, but I suppose that I could buy that heavy rain might slightly effect the trajectory of a round. I fail to see how it would be possible for a bullet to explode, however.

 

[Spartacus451]

Interesting thought, I would imagine that during the heavy rain they see in Vietnam (sheets and sheets of the stuff) a bullet would be well deflected @ 100 yards. Exploding I don't know, but it seems perfectly plausible. Rain is denser then air, and during extremely heavy rain storm a bullet would be required to displace a not insignificant volume of rain (unless it magically dances in between the drops ). I doubt the rain is usually dense enough for the round to disintegrate, but who knows? (I believe on Mythbusters they showed that most rifle rounds disintegrate when shot into water). I wouldn't expect to see a huge difference in performance between 7.62x39 vs. 5.56 either way.

All that being said, I doubt it was the driving force he makes it out to be.

 

[hub]

i think he is trying to tell you he is full of crap. everybody knows that m16 bullets tumble right through the rain.

 

[Leatherneck]

I doubt even the monsoon rains in Vietnam would cause what he says. Just one of the many myths surrounding that rifle, especially from the early days. Now mind you, when it was introduced, there were lots of misfeeds and jams caused by dirt in a weapon with too-tight tolerances for combat.

The air cover situation was exactly as he says: we could not get there to provide CAS when the clouds were below about 2,500 ft. AGL. If you can't see the target visually, you can't bomb inside 100 meters like CAS requires.

TC

 

[JesseJames]

Any physics majors care to take a stab at this?

Some of these high-velocity rounds can do a couple 100,000 rpm going downrange.

 

['Card]

Believe it or not, I heard something similar from an indie guy in South America in the mid-80's.

Is it true? I don't think so. The odds of a bullet hitting a raindrop, even in the heaviest downpour, are almost astronomical - and even if they did hit, I can't see the delflection being all that significant - and even if it was I can't see bullets getting deflected consistently. Not enough to change the outcome of a firefight anyway.

But as with so many other things in life, the fact that it isn't true doesn't keep people (both friendlies and bad guys) from believing it. And once you believe something to be true, it's pretty easy to find anomalous, unconnected events to reinforce the existing belief.

 

[220_Swift]

I have shot many rounds of 220 swift at 4100 fps (much faster than 5.56 NATO) in the rain and have never had one explode in mid-air. But, I will admit that I have never shot it in a down pour. Maybe I'll have to try it some time.

 

[Jim K]

Even in what seems to be a solid sheet of rain, the rain is actually individual drops. Not only is there plenty of room between them, but no individual drop could possibly put up enough resistance to cause the bullet to blow up.

Bullets driven fast enough, at a high enough rotational speed, can disintegrate on their own without hitting anything, but the 5.56 rounds used in the M16 were not high enough velocity to do that with a FMJ bullet.

I have no doubt that the enemy attacked in the rain. It is good tactics, because visibility is limited, which hurts the defense; air power is less effective in bad weather; and because there is a natural human tendency to hunker down in the rain rather than be up and alert. But I don't believe that 5.56mm bullets blow up on raindrops.

Jim

 

[Biker]

Yup, when the day comes in the US to overthrow the Government, we will wait for a rainy day, then charge the 5.56 armed govt troops, en masse, with impunity and attack with tooth and nail, knowing that we will prevail because their M16s are worthless.

Like bulletproof, freedom loving high-speed zombies, we will swoop down upon the transgressors and smite the sinners, knowing that nature is our ally.

Biker

 

[Lupinus]

deflecting it I would buy

As to the chance of hitting a rain drop in a down pour....I have seen a few times and heard even more people managing to hit a bug flying by at the range so a down pour and hitting a raindrop I would buy.

Maybe when he hit the rain drop it explaoded and he thought it was the bullet.

 

[c_yeager]

Little stories like this would seem to be conjured up in the field by soldiers trying to explain why their "perfect" shot didnt drop an enemy. I suspect that a lot of the "failure to stop" stories come from the same source. People do miss, lots of times they miss when they think they made a perfect shot, especially if they dont have a lot of training.

I remember when I was a kid and had perfect shots on targets that resulted in no holes in the target. As a child I would blame the gun. Some people still do.

 

[Imaginos]

Raindrops Falling on my head

I could easily see how a bullet fired through very heavy downpour could appear to "explode" as it impacted raindrops along its path. The little trail of "spray" might actually be visible to the naked eye and create the illusion that the bullets were coming apart.

Unless someone is using HP varmint ammo in his M16, I'm not going to buy the idea that the raindrops were causing the bullets to come apart. I'd buy the idea of a radical deflection before I bought the explosion theory.

 

[espanola]

...everybody knows that m16 bullets tumble right through the rain.

The fact the Thai guy says that sounds about right. I didn't say he was right, just that I'm not surprised he'd say it, and probably believes it. During the Vietnam War, there was a full lunar eclipse that could be seen from Thailand. Many of the Thai troops opened up on the moon trying to keep the monster from eating it.

I've heard of shooting the moon, but that's ridiculous!

 

[Dr.Rob]

on a humid day you can see the wake of your bullet (I've only seen it through a scope) and in super-humid Vietnam maybe that's what he was seeing.

If a 5mph crosswind can affect a bullet at 100 yards I have no doubt higher humidity and actual rain can too.

Sounds like a myth that resulted from actual obesrvation, but drawing the wring conclusions.

 

[sacp81170a]

If a 5mph crosswind can affect a bullet at 100 yards I have no doubt higher humidity and actual rain can too.

???? My ballistic chart shows a drift of .9 inches at 100 yards in a 10 mph crosswind for a .223. Given 2 MOA accuracy, this is negligible. Did you mean 1000 yards?

 

[WinchesterAA]

I deer hunt a lot.. have since I was about 5. Shot deer in pretty heavy rainstorms and never had a bullet get deflected, certainly not explode..

but shots were generally under 70 yards. That being said, I tend to avoid killing things in the rain as much as possible, cuz cleaning a deer in the cold while it's raining sucks.

ETA - I use Winchester Supreme 140grain fail safes

 

[280PLUS]

Wow! I was only gone for a few minutes

Yea, I'd buy the appearance of blowing up from the raindrops exploding. He was indicating range across a parking lot so it may have been closer to 150 yds which might make the deflection theory more plausible. I'll have to ask him if he shot the monster eating the moon. Then again, maybe not.

 

[Sgt Stevo]

BS, I have shot many thousand s of M-16 rounds in all weather, altitude, etc.

even the old rounds, did not do this. take a tracer, shoot it into a downpour, or waterfall. That will show ya.

 

[RexDart]

Time for a submission....

... to Mythbusters. I'd like to see them test this one.

 

[280PLUS]

Do they ever make "splats" while traveling through heavy rain?

 

[280PLUS]

I do recal mythbusters shooting .223 into a water tank. They all disintegrated on contact. That's why what he was telling me seemed plausible. But notice I asked cause I sure don't know. I'll have to take the Bushmaster out again and do some testing of my own I guess. What a shame.