Falling block rifles and pistols. How strong are they?

[whm1974]

Due to this thread, I am now wondering about fall block actions as I no experience with them:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...stevens-favorite-rolling-block-rifles.870643/

Now as I mentioned, I was under the impression that these types of actions are strong and I was wondering if that is actually true or not.

To my knowledge these actions are all single shots. So are there any that are repeating actions.

 

[Jim Watson]

You can't overgeneralize. That Stevens Favorite is in no way a strong action unless compared to a Flobert.
On the other hand, a Ruger No 1 or Miroku made Browning/Winchester "highwall" is fine with belted magnums.

A repeating falling block? Not that I can think of, but there were a lot of ideas tried out in the early years of cartridge arms, and there are some military weapons with operating systems not seen in commercial guns.

 

[whm1974]

You can't overgeneralize. That Stevens Favorite is in no way a strong action unless compared to a Flobert.
On the other hand, a Ruger No 1 or Miroku made Browning/Winchester "highwall" is fine with belted magnums.

A repeating falling block? Not that I can think of, but there were a lot of ideas tried out in the early years of cartridge arms, and there are some military weapons with operating systems not seen in commercial guns.

I found two on Forgotten Weapons the Danish Madsen M1896 Flaadens Rekylgevær and the earlier 1888 version semi auto rifle adopted by the Danish forces.

 

[DocRock]

We have to first differentiate between Rolling block and Falling block. While similar, they are not the same and the strongest falling block would theoretically be somewhat stronger than the strongest rolling block by virtue of that difference.

In practice, they are both extremely strong actions. The Remington Rolling block was chambered in the relatively modern, high pressure 7x57 cartridge and falling block action rifles like the Ruger No. 1 have been chambered in Magnum 65,000 psi pressure cartridges. But, all rolling blocks and falling blocks are not the same. Either rolling or falling block that is designed for a 22lr or low pressure black powder cartridge will not have the same strength as one designed for the 300 RUM. Both are simple, robust and effective.

The Madsen Rasmussen semi-auto falling blocks are very cool! Thanks for posting those.

 

[labnoti]

If I heard correctly, Lynn Brownell, the creator of the Ruger No. 1, did destructive testing on the Ruger No. 1 and was not able to blow it up. This is recorded in Joe Clayton's book. Lee Newton, who is a collector of Ruger No. 1's with what is probably the greatest authority on them, has related this fact on a number of occasions.

Now thinking realistically, practically, I'm sure Lynn did not try to blowing the No. 1 up with a fast pistol powder, pure nitroglycerin, or C4. What I can imagine him doing is using egregious overcharges, full cases of slow rifle powders. The barrel and receiver surrounding a No. 1 chamber is pretty stout and I'm sure it could hold something like 100,000 psi without rupturing.

Eric Blandford (Iraqveteran8888) made a video where a Mosin Nagant is loaded far overpressure, even with pistol powder, and while the receiver is ultimately warped enough to prevent the bolt from opening, it doesn't rupture. I can imagine a Ruger No. 1 would also hold up, but would be less vulnerable to the action seizing because it doesn't have a bolt to bind. You would really have to do something over-the-top to destroy a No. 1 with pressure.

 

[whm1974]

We have to first differentiate between Rolling block and Falling block. While similar, they are not the same and the strongest falling block would theoretically be somewhat stronger than the strongest rolling block by virtue of that difference.

In practice, they are both extremely strong actions. The Remington Rolling block was chambered in the relatively modern, high pressure 7x57 cartridge and falling block action rifles like the Ruger No. 1 have been chambered in Magnum 65,000 psi pressure cartridges. But, all rolling blocks and falling blocks are not the same. Either rolling or falling block that is designed for a 22lr or low pressure black powder cartridge will not have the same strength as one designed for the 300 RUM. Both are simple, robust and effective.

The Madsen Rasmussen semi-auto falling blocks are very cool! Thanks for posting those.

Well here the Madsen machine gun:

 

[whm1974]

A thought right now, are there any shotguns using falling blocks or rolling blocks?

 

[WestKentucky]

I thought that there was a butt loaded repeater that shucked a short shell (32-20 or similar) and then at fully lowered position it let a round feed from the tube in the butt. But I can’t remember what it would be, could easily be a rolling block rather than a falling block.

 

[Riomouse911]

Ive never seen a modern shotgun with a falling or rolling block. I can imagine it would take a big action to fit anything more than a .410 or maybe a 28.

Stay safe.

 

[mcb]

A Steven Favorite is not a true falling block since the breach block rotates on a pivot not sliding in channels in the receiver block. This results in a weaker action. The true falling block like a Browning high-wall or Ruger Model 1 are very strong actions. One could argue one of the strongest of the common small arms action types.

Not to mention nearly all tanks main-guns use a falling block style action along with a fair number of artillery pieces and anti-tank guns. Though in many cases the breach block moves to the side for various ergonomic and space reasons.

 

[whm1974]

A Steven Favorite is not a true falling block since the breach block rotates on a pivot not sliding in channels in the receiver block. This results in a weaker action. The true falling block like a Browning high-wall or Ruger Model 1 are very strong actions. One could argue one of the strongest of the common small arms action types.

Not to mention nearly all tanks main-guns use a falling block style action along with a fair number of artillery pieces and anti-tank guns. Though in many cases the breach block moves to the side for various ergonomic and space reasons.

Moving Side Block Action?

 

[WestKentucky]

A thought right now, are there any shotguns using falling blocks or rolling blocks?

I have seen Martini Henry conversions. As much as the Remington rolling block has been copied and customized I would be surprised if there isn’t a slightly oversized action built specifically for shotgun shells, and that would be awesome for a slug gun.

 

[mcb]

Moving Side Block Action?

In the case of a small arms having the breach block move to the side would sort of defeat one of the nice aspects of the falling block, since the falling block is one of the few actions that is truly ambidextrous. In a tank gun it was common to have the breech block move to the side away from the loader to give them easier access to the breach from the side of the gun in the cramp confines of a tank turret. That said the M1 Abrams that have the M256 gun the breech block drops down but the turret is fairly spacious compare to many others.

 

[whm1974]

This may sound a bit silly but maybe in Denmark... Making a simplified copy of the 1896 Madsen falling block semi auto rifle, chambered in modern cartridges? Perhaps even something in .458 SOCOM?

 

[Jim Watson]

A thought right now, are there any shotguns using falling blocks or rolling blocks?

There were the Greener GP and Trap guns on Peabody Martini tipping block.

Winchester made Highwall shotguns, true falling blocks; there were Remington Rolling Block shotguns and the Springfield Trapdoor Forager on other 19th Century single shot actions more commonly associated with rifle calibers.

There was a Hopkins and Allen falling block, I think I have seen more shotguns than rifles on it.

 

[tark]

A thought right now, are there any shotguns using falling blocks or rolling blocks?

Some Remington rolling blocks were converted to 16 gauge shotguns. This could only be done on the large #1 or 1 1/2 actions. The nose of the hammer was ground down and severely angled so the shotgun round just barely cleared, when loading the gun.

I have built two rolling block rifles from scratch, from blocks of steel. The first was a 45-70 which was proofed with a load developing 50,000 PSI. The other was in 30-06 and was proofed with a German 7.62 X 63 proof round, developing 85,000 PSI. Both guns were overbuilt compared to the originals. Thicker sidewalls on the actions, narrower breech blocks and hammers, and larger diameter pivot pins. All coil springs. There is a penalty for overbuilding....weight. Both guns weigh almost 11# The 45-70 action I machined from 1045 steel and the 06, from 4140. Both were heat treated to RC 40.

Rolling blocks have many advantages: They are stupid simple to operate and relatively cheap and easy to manufacture. They are rugged and reliable. But they have disadvantages as well. Pierce a primer and you will get a face full of gas. And they have possibly the S L O W E S T lock time of any rifle. It takes a long time for that big, heavy hammer to fall.

Rolling blocks can be enormously strong, but the strongest of all actions is probably a falling block, like a Ruger #1 I don't know how you could possibly blow one up short of loading the cartridge with Dynamite instead of gunpowder. The Stevens "favorite" and most of the other Stevens single shots were all pretty similar internally. None of them were particularly "strong" but all were more than adequately strong for the cartridges they were chambered in. The exception was the #44 1/2 action which was a true falling block. It is very strong and is highly prized ( and expensive ) today.

Sorry about the sideways pics, my puter is drunk.....again. The first pic is is the 45-70 The second has the 30-06 on the right. The last pic is the 06.

 

[whm1974]

Some Remington rolling blocks were converted to 16 gauge shotguns. This could only be done on the large #1 or 1 1/2 actions. The nose of the hammer was ground down and severely angled so the shotgun round just barely cleared, when loading the gun.

I have built two rolling block rifles from scratch, from blocks of steel. The first was a 45-70 which was proofed with a load developing 50,000 PSI. The other was in 30-06 and was proofed with a German 7.62 X 63 proof round, developing 85,000 PSI. Both guns were overbuilt compared to the originals. Thicker sidewalls on the actions, narrower breech blocks and hammers, and larger diameter pivot pins. All coil springs. There is a penalty for overbuilding....weight. Both guns weigh almost 11# The 45-70 action I machined from 1045 steel and the 06, from 4140. Both were heat treated to RC 40.

Rolling blocks have many advantages: They are stupid simple to operate and relatively cheap and easy to manufacture. They are rugged and reliable. But they have disadvantages as well. Pierce a primer and you will get a face full of gas. And they have possibly the S L O W E S T lock time of any rifle. It takes a long time for that big, heavy hammer to fall.

Rolling blocks can be enormously strong, but the strongest of all actions is probably a falling block, like a Ruger #1 I don't know how you could possibly blow one up short of loading the cartridge with Dynamite instead of gunpowder. The Stevens "favorite" and most of the other Stevens single shots were all pretty similar internally. None of them were particularly "strong" but all were more than adequately strong for the cartridges they were chambered in. The exception was the #44 1/2 action which was a true falling block. It is very strong and is highly prized ( and expensive ) today.

Sorry about the sideways pics, my puter is drunk.....again. The first pic is is the 45-70 The second has the 30-06 on the right. The last pic is the 06.

What about any Safeties? Half Cock for the hammer? Firing Pin doesn't rest on primer?

 

[Jim Watson]

Half cock is near universal. Revolvers and shotguns got rebounding hammers early on, but not US rifles. Seen on English and Continental guns.
American rifles hardly at all. A Winchester "highwall" cocking itself as the lever is swung was considered an advantage. You can shoot one pretty fast.

 

[Geldarr]

Wouldn't the Winchester 1887/1901 count as a rolling block shotgun?

Norinco is making copies to this day...

 

[tark]

What about any Safeties? Half Cock for the hammer? Firing Pin doesn't rest on primer?

The only safety on a rolling block is a half cock notch.

Wouldn't the Winchester 1887/1901 count as a rolling block shotgun?

Norinco is making copies to this day...

I think you may be right on that one. I have never seen an exploded diagram on those guns. Not really sure what , exactly, locked the breech at the moment of discharge.

 

[Sniper66]

I had a Ruger #1 .204 I used to shoot prairie dogs; lots of them and it never failed to function. My brother has several Ruger #1 rifles and swears by them. Certainly no sign of weakness.

 

[Steve Milbocker]

1885 Low wall ( reproduction)

 

[792mauser]

The greener Martini styled shotguns were produced until the mid 60's.

 

[StrawHat]

...1885 Low wall ( reproduction)...

The spruce branch is a nice touch.


Kevin

 

[Obturation]

Thanks guys... Re-ignite my lust for a #1 and now my gears are turning. This forum is full of enablers and I'm susceptible to persuasion.
I'm just trying to save for a revolver that I've skipped over the last 2 times I had cash melting a hole in my pocket.