Families of Sutherland Springs Shooting Victims Win the Right to Sue Gun Store That Sold Weapons

[Pat Riot]

Shunning is a wonderful form of communication...


Anyway, I have always been of the opinion that if one brings a lawsuit that is trounced overwhelmingly by a jury or a judge that the defendant in the case should be able to seek damages in the same vein as those that they were sued for and that at the very least the suer should be made to pay ALL court costs and if the plaintiff cannot their lawyer must.

Many have sympathy for these folks that have lost loved ones and think that an idea like mine is brash and uncaring.
“Justice Is Blind”...which we all know is bull spit, but once someone takes things to the level of the courts then justice should be blind to the emotions, feelings and losses to the plaintiffs and move and work accordingly.

It seems most folks that file frivolous lawsuits are out for vengeance...and money. If they are after money then they should lose money should they fail in their lawsuit.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

It seems most folks that file frivolous lawsuits are out for vengeance...and money. If they are after money then they should lose money should they fail in their lawsuit.

I found the suit filing. The plaintiff attorneys are personal injury lawyers. I’m guessing they are looking for payday.

https://www.scribd.com/document/367498734/Chris-Ward-et-al-v-Academy-Sports-Outdoors

 

[sparkyv]

The way I read the suit, there ain't much there specifically about the 30 round magazine. It charges that the AR should not have been given into the shooter's possession, rather it should have been shipped to his home state of CO. I read it as an accusation of illegal sale of a firearm.

 

[tarosean]

It charges that the AR should not have been given into the shooter's possession, rather it should have been shipped to his home state of CO. I read it as an accusation of illegal sale of a firearm.

FEDERAL LAW

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.99

27 CFR § 478.99 - Certain prohibited sales or deliveries.

• CFR

prev | next
§ 478.99 Certain prohibited sales or deliveries.
(a)Interstate sales or deliveries. A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, orlicensed collector shall not sell or deliver any firearm to any person not licensed under this part and who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business or activity is located: Provided, That the foregoing provisions of this paragraph (1) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of a rifle or shotgun (curio or relic, in the case of a licensed collector) to a resident of a State other than the State in which the licensee's place of business or collection premises is located if the requirements of § 478.96(c) are fully met, and (2) shall not apply to the loan or rental of A firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes (see § 478.97)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

All weapons are "assault weapons." Assault is a verb, not a noun.

Wow. Two sentences and they are both not not accurate.

1. All weapons are not assault weapons.

2. as·sault
Dictionary result for assault
/əˈsôlt/

noun: assault; plural noun: assaults

a physical attack.
"his imprisonment for an assault on the film director"
synonyms: (physical) violence, battery, mugging, actual bodily harm, ABH; More

Some weapons are classified as 'assault weapons,' but certainly not all of them. Assault can be a verb or a noun.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

The way I read the suit, there ain't much there specifically about the 30 round magazine. It charges that the AR should not have been given into the shooter's possession, rather it should have been shipped to his home state of CO. I read it as an accusation of illegal sale of a firearm.

View attachment 825017

Agreed. The suit does not appear to be about the magazine but the transfer of the rifle itself.

I’d be interested to know if the colorado address mentioned in the suit was found in the current address box on the 4473, or if it refers to the birthplace box listed on the 4473. Also would be interested to know if the person that bought the rifle presented a Texas ID.

I wonder this because news articles from the time suggest he’d been in texas for quite awhile, including graduation from high school and an established address at the time of the crime. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...hurch-Shooter-Identified-455426933.html?amp=y

 

[Texas10mm]

Agreed. The suit does not appear to be about the magazine but the transfer of the rifle itself.

I’d be interested to know if the colorado address mentioned in the suit was found in the current address box on the 4473, or if it refers to the birthplace box losted on the 4473. Also would be interested to know if the person that bought the rifle presented a Texas ID.

The address on the ID must match the address on the 4473. The buyer presented a Colorado ID while purchasing a rifle in Texas,.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

The address on the ID must match the address on the 4473. The buyer presented a Colorado ID while purchasing a rifle in Texas,.

I’m familiar with the process as it should be done. Apparently (according to the lawsuit) the seller was not. I will be interested in reading the defense’s position.

 

[Elkins45]

Wow. Two sentences and they are both not not accurate.

1. All weapons are not assault weapons.

2. as·sault
Dictionary result for assault
/əˈsôlt/

noun: assault; plural noun: assaults

a physical attack.
"his imprisonment for an assault on the film director"
synonyms: (physical) violence, battery, mugging, actual bodily harm, ABH; More

Some weapons are classified as 'assault weapons,' but certainly not all of them. Assault can be a verb or a noun.

I’ll take the hit on the part of speech, but not on the first part. The purpose of a weapon is to inflict harm on a person or thing. You do that by assaulting them. It is true that weapons can be used defensively after one has been assaulted. That would be a counter-assault.

Assault when not used as a verb or noun is a modifier: a fork used to stab someone is an assault fork. That’s why all weapons are assault weapons. If it can’t be used to assault then it is a poor weapon indeed.

 

[Texas10mm]

I’m familiar with the process as it should be done. Apparently (according to the lawsuit) the seller was not. I will be interested in reading the defense’s position.

Academy knows the process. They followed the law. The plaintiffs are saying that Academy should not have sold him the gun WITH THE 30 round mag because it would not be a legal purchase in Colorado.

There are a couple of problems with this.

1. It's legal to own and purchase standard capacity magazines in Texas.
2. Even if Academy had removed the 30 round mag from the box there was NOTHING to stop the bad guy from simply purchasing 30 round mags off the shelf at Academy or elsewhere.
3. This case has implications beyond the firearms purchase. Should a store in Texas be required to NOT put a purchase in a plastic bag because the bag would be illegal where the buyer lives? Are you ready to have to show ID for EVERY purchase?
4. They are going after Academy because that's the biggest pocket they could find that they could sue. The Air Force is actually the root of the problem for not reporting the bad guy's history to NICS. If that had been done he would not have been able to purchase a firearm in the first place.
5. Does the reach of Colorado's law extend to Texas? If I have a Colorado ID should I be able to purchase pot in Texas because it's legal in Colorado?

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

Texas10mm, I agree with everything you say above.

The suit as filed makes no mention of the magazine. There appears to be more focus on that in the article than there is in the original lawsuit filing.

If the article asserts (and it does) that the case focuses on the magazine then i bet it will be a losing proposition for the plaintiff. As it should be.

Honestly I think the article in the OP is more of an opinion hit piece as evidenced by the last couple of paragraphs. In fact Splinter has a mission statement that immediately makes me think they are not exactly a credible news source. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinter_News

If the courtroom proceedings are actually focused on giving the guy a rifle without shipping it to his out of state FFL then there may be a problem. This is the basis of the lawsuit per the original brief filed with the court, and I will bet that is why the judge allowed the lawsuit to proceed. Not because of the magazine. I will be eager to read Academy’s defense.

In answer to your questions, no, i don’t want to show id for every purchase, and no, another state’s laws should not take precedence over Texas law.

 

[Texas10mm]

In the local paper we're told that they plaintiffs are trying to prove that magazine=weapon since one can't work without the other. There's one slight problem with that. Federal law and common sense tells us that the magazine is not the same as the weapon. You have to show ID and have a background check to buy the weapon. All you need to buy the magazine is money.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

In the local paper we're told that they plaintiffs are trying to prove that magazine=weapon since one can't work without the other. There's one slight problem with that. Federal law and common sense tells us that the magazine is not the same as the weapon. You have to show ID and have a background check to buy the weapon. All you need to buy the magazine is money.

Of course, you are correct. And if that is truly what the plaintiff is running with then their case is a joke. I know the dallas morning news is quoting snippets from the attorney, all the while breathlessly posting the latest courtroom statements as “news”. DMN isn’t exactly filled with Walter Winchells anymore, either. They have a decidedly anti-2A liberal bent to match most of the rest of the large newspapers in TX.

I believe there is something else that’s being missed that isn’t being reported. Otherwise this lawsuit would be tossed already. As I’m sure you also understand, “reporters” that write gun-related news often have zero idea of how the laws work and often just sieze on whatever the hotbutton of the day is and beat that horse until it’s dead.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

The only one who will win is the lawyers...

Dont see this as winnable.

A) You can buy rifles across state lines. He unfortunately passed his background check due to the Military's screw up.
B) No ID is required to buy a Magazine. They are on the shelves of Academy, just like baseball mitts and tennis shoes.

I think a great example is legal marijuana in some states. Its not up to them to police what you do with it. The individual persons onus is on them returning to his/her state, where illegal.

I didn't know an out-of-state individual could buy marijuana in a state where it is legal to purchase? I thought you had to be a citizen of the state, in other words, you will be asked to show your ID?

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Academy knows the process. They followed the law. The plaintiffs are saying that Academy should not have sold him the gun WITH THE 30 round mag because it would not be a legal purchase in Colorado.

There are a couple of problems with this.

1. It's legal to own and purchase standard capacity magazines in Texas.
2. Even if Academy had removed the 30 round mag from the box there was NOTHING to stop the bad guy from simply purchasing 30 round mags off the shelf at Academy or elsewhere.
3. This case has implications beyond the firearms purchase. Should a store in Texas be required to NOT put a purchase in a plastic bag because the bag would be illegal where the buyer lives? Are you ready to have to show ID for EVERY purchase?
4. They are going after Academy because that's the biggest pocket they could find that they could sue. The Air Force is actually the root of the problem for not reporting the bad guy's history to NICS. If that had been done he would not have been able to purchase a firearm in the first place.
5. Does the reach of Colorado's law extend to Texas? If I have a Colorado ID should I be able to purchase pot in Texas because it's legal in Colorado?

This is the real issue, not Academy Sports. Again, this is another instance of a federally controlled entity (the military branch known as the Air Force) not doing its job properly and people ended up dead. Now, guess what, you and I have to pay the consequences. Even if this lawsuit ends up going no where, the 2nd Amendment will still be infringed upon.

 

[Texas10mm]

I didn't know an out-of-state individual could buy marijuana in a state where it is legal to purchase? I thought you had to be a citizen of the state, in other words, you will be asked to show your ID?

Nope. Dope tourism is a big thing.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes it is. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickko...t-big-thing-in-cannabis-tourism/#14523d5c5d9b

Now, you may have to have residency to get medical marijuana in states that don't have recreational marijuana... https://www.thestreet.com/how-to/how-to-get-medical-marijuana-card-14643518

However, none of that applies to buying a magazine in person in state.

 

[CapnMac]

The whole thing is a mudpit.
First off, due was residing, per the Federal definition--in Texas. Colorado law has nothing to do, federally, with the transaction. Other than Colorado ID was used--illegally--to complete the transaction.

Sidebar: Dud used his Colorado ID because he had been denied a Texas LTC as the background check surfaced the AF discharge for DV. Shooter thought that the Texas denial would be on the NCIS.

Lawyers for Academy ought to be able to file for dismissal due to inapplicability. Especially since there is a huge body of proor decision that retailers cannot be presumed to know the laws of every state the buyers come from. That a preseumption exists that the citizens of the various State will conform to their State laws.

Sadly, in these sorts of cases, juries are not told that there are thousands and tens of thousands of laws, that no one can know them all, or even enough of them all to even have a general understanding of most of them. What they will be presented is a big, giant, over-rich, uncaring, evil corporation that recklessly ut aside a single, clearly obvious, law for greed and avaraice is complete and utter disregard for public safety, decency, apple pie, or the AmericanWay.

 

[wally]

I didn't know an out-of-state individual could buy marijuana in a state where it is legal to purchase?

Its called "pot tourism". Seems to be encouraged by Colorado. Border state LE regularly stop cars that make repeated trips from their state to Colorado and back catching a lot of folks looking to bring some home -- aka smugglers.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Plaintiffs very often sue whomever is in sight who's big enough to pay, and small enough to beat. The perp's estate isn't big enough to pay; DoD is too big to beat.

This. It ain't about who, if anyone, is actually culpable. We need major tort reform in the worst way.

The way I read the suit, there ain't much there specifically about the 30 round magazine. It charges that the AR should not have been given into the shooter's possession, rather it should have been shipped to his home state of CO. I read it as an accusation of illegal sale of a firearm.

View attachment 825017

Plaintiff's attorney is a moron. 100% legal for an FFL to transfer a long gun to a resident of another state so long as the firearm is legal in the buyer's state of residence, which ARs are here in CO. Handguns are a different story, have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's state of residence. But long guns can be sold and physically transferred on the spot. Academy broke no laws here.

The whole thing is a mudpit.
First off, due was residing, per the Federal definition--in Texas. Colorado law has nothing to do, federally, with the transaction. Other than Colorado ID was used--illegally--to complete the transaction.

You can use photo ID issued by another state to establish identity, just have to have proof of residency in state of transaction for purchasing handguns. For long guns, it doesn't matter, as long as the address on the 4473 matches the residency address, however that is proved.

Although I am sympathetic and I don’t think Academy should sell assault weapons,

Ignore list grows by one.

 

[Kaybee]

I feel bad for the guy, he lost his family. But suing a gun store makes no dang sense and I can’t help but wonder if anyone in the anti gun lobby is manipulating this poor grieving man.


Here is a link to a similar and interesting case:
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usne...-gun-couple-out-to-dry-when-they-lose-lawsuit

In that one the Brady campaign convinced a grieving family to sue an ammo dealer, and when case was thrown out and they were responsible for their opponents legal fees, the Brady campaign ditched them.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Nope. Dope tourism is a big thing.

No wonder the adjacent states are so ticked off.

 

[CapnMac]

You can use photo ID issued by another state to establish identity

Actually, I was not speaking of whether the seller acted legally; I was trying to point out the buyer violated the law by misrepresent his actual residence (and also by knowingly purchasing a weapon by a Prohibited Person--he, and all those with similar charges are given an Exit Briefing on dsicahrge from the Naval Brig in San Diego).

This is muddy legal water on the civil libility side in that, if a buyer uses legitimate documents to engage in a felonious sale, is the seller in the wrong for believing legitimate documents are real and accurate and that the affidavit of the buyer is, in fact legitimate.

The jury will be told that Academy should have known buyer was committing several felonies, and that they ignored that in favor of evil corporate greed and irresponsible profits.

 

[giggitygiggity]

B) No ID is required to buy a Magazine. They are on the shelves of Academy, just like baseball mitts and tennis shoes.

Now when they lose the lawsuit to Academy, the gun grabbers will argue that “common sense” gun control should require documentation to buy magazines.

Do we really expect to have firearms law attorneys working as sales people at sporting good stores? You have to be an expert to navigate all the different state laws. What if a mass shooter bought a standard capacity (30 round) magazine and rifle using a state ID for a state in which the firearm and rifle were legal to own, but lived in a city that prohibited one or both of those items? Is an Academy employee expected to be familiar with every law, ordnance, etc at all levels of government? This couldn’t possibly be a case of people looking to soak up a bunch of money from a huge sporting goods chain, could it?

 

[MachIVshooter]

Actually, I was not speaking of whether the seller acted legally; I was trying to point out the buyer violated the law by misrepresent his actual residence (and also by knowingly purchasing a weapon by a Prohibited Person--he, and all those with similar charges are given an Exit Briefing on dsicahrge from the Naval Brig in San Diego).

Ah. Gotcha.

The jury will be told that Academy should have known buyer was committing several felonies, and that they ignored that in favor of evil corporate greed and irresponsible profits.

Let's hope there's a jury full of the increasingly rare breed of Americans who put truth & honor ahead of feelings.